The "Self" in Tibetan Buddhism

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
User avatar
srivijaya
Posts: 166
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:17 pm
Location: UK

Re: The "Self" in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by srivijaya » Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:44 pm

thomaslaw wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:39 am
It seems the Buddha nature in the Tibetan is similar to Brahman 'the universal soul'.
Thomas
Steady on there Thomas...

User avatar
PuerAzaelis
Posts: 958
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 1:37 pm

Re: The "Self" in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by PuerAzaelis » Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:06 pm

thomaslaw wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:39 am
It seems the Buddha nature in the Tibetan is similar to Brahman 'the universal soul'.
It's always funny when I hear Theravada described as Hinayana. Theravadins call Mahayanists "Essentialists" for the same reasons. Unless you have straw dogs your own hocus pocus doesn't mean anything.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

For posts from this user, see Karma Dondrup Tashi account.

User avatar
CedarTree
Posts: 556
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:13 pm

Re: The "Self" in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by CedarTree » Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:41 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:06 pm
thomaslaw wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:39 am
It seems the Buddha nature in the Tibetan is similar to Brahman 'the universal soul'.
It's always funny when I hear Theravada described as Hinayana. Theravadins call Mahayanists "Essentialists" for the same reasons. Unless you have straw dogs your own hocus pocus doesn't mean anything.
Amen!

Practice, Practice, Practice

User avatar
dzogchungpa
Posts: 6333
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: The "Self" in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:44 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:06 pm
thomaslaw wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:39 am
It seems the Buddha nature in the Tibetan is similar to Brahman 'the universal soul'.
It's always funny when I hear Theravada described as Hinayana. Theravadins call Mahayanists "Essentialists" for the same reasons. Unless you have straw dogs your own hocus pocus doesn't mean anything.

Do you mean "straw men"? Sadly, we are all straw dogs. :(
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

User avatar
CedarTree
Posts: 556
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:13 pm

Re: The "Self" in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by CedarTree » Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:48 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:07 pm
CedarTree wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:01 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 5:36 pm


There is virtually nothing in English yet that clearly explains these points. Working on it.
Are points like this and detailed understandings present in the book you were saying will be available in 2018 of yours?
Some of these points are explained there. But in general, if you want to follow Dzogchen teachings you need to receive Dzogchen empowerments, ideal if one can, receive the Chetsun Nyinthig, Vima Nyinthig, etc., but if one cannot, then direct introduction will suffice from ChNN, Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche, etc. There is no benefit at all in reading Dzogchen tantras if one has not made the effort to receive Dzogchen transmission.
Well said, though Malcolm I would really suggest you write books explaining and detailing points of practice. This could be a powerful offering to the community. In a time where points are sometimes not well understood and or clarified and there can be a lot "teachers" that don't really understand subtle and extremely important distinctions and definitions I could see this being eaten up.

People are hungry, feed them lol!

Practice, Practice, Practice

thomaslaw
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:00 am
Location: Australia

Re: The "Self" in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by thomaslaw » Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:51 pm

srivijaya wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:44 pm
thomaslaw wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:39 am
It seems the Buddha nature in the Tibetan is similar to Brahman 'the universal soul'.
Thomas
Steady on there Thomas...
Do you mean you agree Buddha nature is the universal soul?

Thomas

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1752
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: The "Self" in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by Coëmgenu » Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:54 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:44 pm
PuerAzaelis wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:06 pm
thomaslaw wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:39 am
It seems the Buddha nature in the Tibetan is similar to Brahman 'the universal soul'.
It's always funny when I hear Theravada described as Hinayana. Theravadins call Mahayanists "Essentialists" for the same reasons. Unless you have straw dogs your own hocus pocus doesn't mean anything.

Do you mean "straw men"? Sadly, we are all straw dogs. :(
Straw dogs, or dogs of grass, is a Chinese expression, I think at least. It's in the Daodejing. I don't think it means the same as strawmen, but I am not sure. I am also not sure if that is what the poster in question meant.
नस्वातो नापिपरतो नद्वाभ्यां नाप्यहेतुतः उत्पन्ना जातु विद्यन्ते भावाः क्वचन केचन
There absolutely are no things, nowhere and none, that arise anew, neither out of themselves, nor out of non-self, nor out of both, nor at random.
सर्वं तथ्यं न वा तथ्यं तथ्यं चातथ्यम् एव च नैवातथ्यं नैव तथ्यम् एतद् बुद्धानुशासनम्
All is so, or all is not so, both so and not so, neither so nor not so. This is the Buddha's teaching.

一切實非實亦實亦非實
非實非非實是名諸佛法

User avatar
dzogchungpa
Posts: 6333
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: The "Self" in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:58 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:54 pm
Straw dogs, or dogs of grass, is a Chinese expression, I think at least. It's in the Daodejing. I don't think it means the same as strawmen, but I am not sure. I am also not sure if that is what the poster in question meant.

Yes, I was thinking of the Daodejing. PuerAzaelis' posts, though always replete with meaning, are often quite cryptic so I was asking for clarification.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1752
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: The "Self" in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by Coëmgenu » Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:18 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:58 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:54 pm
Straw dogs, or dogs of grass, is a Chinese expression, I think at least. It's in the Daodejing. I don't think it means the same as strawmen, but I am not sure. I am also not sure if that is what the poster in question meant.

Yes, I was thinking of the Daodejing. PuerAzaelis' posts, though always replete with meaning, are often quite cryptic so I was asking for clarification.
I'm pretty sure "dogs of grass" is "useless nonsense" as a parallel phrase. But I am not sure.
नस्वातो नापिपरतो नद्वाभ्यां नाप्यहेतुतः उत्पन्ना जातु विद्यन्ते भावाः क्वचन केचन
There absolutely are no things, nowhere and none, that arise anew, neither out of themselves, nor out of non-self, nor out of both, nor at random.
सर्वं तथ्यं न वा तथ्यं तथ्यं चातथ्यम् एव च नैवातथ्यं नैव तथ्यम् एतद् बुद्धानुशासनम्
All is so, or all is not so, both so and not so, neither so nor not so. This is the Buddha's teaching.

一切實非實亦實亦非實
非實非非實是名諸佛法

Simon E.
Posts: 5636
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: The "Self" in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by Simon E. » Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:24 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:54 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:44 pm
PuerAzaelis wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:06 pm

It's always funny when I hear Theravada described as Hinayana. Theravadins call Mahayanists "Essentialists" for the same reasons. Unless you have straw dogs your own hocus pocus doesn't mean anything.

Do you mean "straw men"? Sadly, we are all straw dogs. :(
Straw dogs, or dogs of grass, is a Chinese expression, I think at least. It's in the Daodejing. I don't think it means the same as strawmen, but I am not sure. I am also not sure if that is what the poster in question meant.
Straw dogs are ceremonial objects burned in some Daoist ceremonies.
Straw men are arguments which address points that have not actually been made in a discussion.
What the poster intended is anyone's guess. As per.
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 1752
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:35 pm
Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: The "Self" in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by Coëmgenu » Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:26 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:24 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:54 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:44 pm



Do you mean "straw men"? Sadly, we are all straw dogs. :(
Straw dogs, or dogs of grass, is a Chinese expression, I think at least. It's in the Daodejing. I don't think it means the same as strawmen, but I am not sure. I am also not sure if that is what the poster in question meant.
Straw dogs are ceremonial objects burned in some Daoist ceremonies.
Straw men are arguments which address points that have not actually been made in a discussion.
What the poster intended is anyone's guess. As per.
Yes, but the expression "straw dogs/dogs of grass" means "useless nonsense".

刍狗

It also means "junk", or "stuff to be thrown away after usage". Apparently it is because they threw away the straw dogs after using them.
नस्वातो नापिपरतो नद्वाभ्यां नाप्यहेतुतः उत्पन्ना जातु विद्यन्ते भावाः क्वचन केचन
There absolutely are no things, nowhere and none, that arise anew, neither out of themselves, nor out of non-self, nor out of both, nor at random.
सर्वं तथ्यं न वा तथ्यं तथ्यं चातथ्यम् एव च नैवातथ्यं नैव तथ्यम् एतद् बुद्धानुशासनम्
All is so, or all is not so, both so and not so, neither so nor not so. This is the Buddha's teaching.

一切實非實亦實亦非實
非實非非實是名諸佛法

Simon E.
Posts: 5636
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: The "Self" in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by Simon E. » Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:35 pm

It depends on context. But as we are discussing a phrase used by someone who appears to like being enigmatic its anyone's guess what he had in mind... ;)
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28558
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: The "Self" in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by Malcolm » Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:47 pm

CedarTree wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:48 pm

Well said, though Malcolm I would really suggest you write books explaining and detailing points of practice. This could be a powerful offering to the community.
Well, I have don't really have time to write a book write now. I am too busy working on translations.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
PuerAzaelis
Posts: 958
Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2016 1:37 pm

Re: The "Self" in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by PuerAzaelis » Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:35 pm
It depends on context. But as we are discussing a phrase used by someone who appears to like being enigmatic its anyone's guess what he had in mind... ;)
Straw dogs, straw men ... I didn't know there was a difference!?!?

Anyway I don't like being enigmatic but ...

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... eHasToDoIt
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

For posts from this user, see Karma Dondrup Tashi account.

User avatar
dzogchungpa
Posts: 6333
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: The "Self" in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:14 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:57 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:35 pm
It depends on context. But as we are discussing a phrase used by someone who appears to like being enigmatic its anyone's guess what he had in mind... ;)
Straw dogs, straw men ... I didn't know there was a difference!?!?

Anyway I don't like being enigmatic but ...

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... eHasToDoIt


Oh man, I'm totally having a flashback to this now:

There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

krodha
Posts: 2440
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm

Re: The "Self" in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by krodha » Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:33 pm

srivijaya wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:43 am
The Jonangpas have an interesting take on it and quite a history to go with it.
For the Jonangpas, the emptiness of ultimate reality should not be characterized in the same way as the emptiness of apparent phenomena because it is prabhāsvara-saṃtāna, or "clear light mental continuum," endowed with limitless Buddha qualities. It is empty of all that is false, not empty of the limitless Buddha qualities that are its innate nature.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonang
In the Tibetan Jonang school, only the Buddha and the Buddha Nature are viewed as not intrinsically empty, but as truly real, unconditioned, and replete with eternal, changeless virtues. The Buddha Nature (tathagatagarbha) is only empty of what is impermanent and conditioned, not of its own self. The Buddha Nature is truly real, and primordially present in all beings.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9A%C5 ... %81#Jonang
This interpretation is strictly relegated to the Jonang, and their school was ostracized for some time because of it, almost nearly destroyed altogether.

Sennin
Posts: 716
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:19 am

Re: The "Self" in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by Sennin » Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:34 am

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:14 pm

In Dzogchen teachings, three kāyas are path appearances and do not exist in the result.

So path vidya is a "radiance" juxtaposed to the stage of liberation?
Shhh, look...a crystal!

thomaslaw
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:00 am
Location: Australia

Re: The "Self" in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by thomaslaw » Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:17 am

srivijaya wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:44 pm
thomaslaw wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:39 am
It seems the Buddha nature in the Tibetan is similar to Brahman 'the universal soul'.
Thomas
Steady on there Thomas...
Do you mean you do agree the Buddha nature is similar to Brahman the universal soul?

Thomas

User avatar
Aryjna
Posts: 1106
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:45 pm

Re: The "Self" in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by Aryjna » Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:10 pm

thomaslaw wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:17 am
srivijaya wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:44 pm
thomaslaw wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:39 am
It seems the Buddha nature in the Tibetan is similar to Brahman 'the universal soul'.
Thomas
Steady on there Thomas...
Do you mean you do agree the Buddha nature is similar to Brahman the universal soul?

Thomas
Thomaslaw is probably trolling, given his other statements in different threads.

User avatar
kirtu
Former staff member
Posts: 6175
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: The "Self" in Tibetan Buddhism

Post by kirtu » Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:21 pm

thomaslaw wrote:
Sat Nov 25, 2017 2:17 am
srivijaya wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:44 pm
thomaslaw wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:39 am
It seems the Buddha nature in the Tibetan is similar to Brahman 'the universal soul'.
Thomas
Steady on there Thomas...
Do you mean you do agree the Buddha nature is similar to Brahman the universal soul?

Thomas
No Buddha Nature is not similar to Brahman or any view of the nonexistant universal soul.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

Post Reply

Return to “Tibetan Buddhism”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: PemaSherab and 95 guests