Shingon?

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CedarTree
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Shingon?

Post by CedarTree » Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:59 pm

How does the Japanese Shingon differ from Dzogchen or Mahamudra?

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Virgo
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Re: Shingon?

Post by Virgo » Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:40 pm

It's lower tantra.

Kevin

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Re: Shingon?

Post by Tenma » Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:41 pm

CedarTree wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:59 pm
How does the Japanese Shingon differ from Dzogchen or Mahamudra?
In Shingon, they don't have ritualistic intercourse nor the use of the mother and father tantras. Rather, they are more Mahayana, but more ritualistic. Shingon are more of a beginner version of Tibetan tantra, except no 8 offerings, no emptiness mantras, and so on. Even in advanced stages, there is no wrathful offerings and so on. Nor are there any oath-bound deities. Also, even in meditation of deities, they just see the "statue" of the deity that is still and shining light while reciting mantras, nothing with becoming the deity nor actions. Still, there are use of seed syllables(in Siddham of course) and similar mandalas with deities(except dressed more "Eastern" rather than Indian or Tibetan). Also, no guru yoga(unless you count paying respect to lineages and masters).

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Re: Shingon?

Post by CedarTree » Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:42 pm

Virgo wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:40 pm
It's lower tantra.

Kevin
More details needed lol

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Re: Shingon?

Post by Tenma » Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:26 pm

Tenma wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:41 pm
CedarTree wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:59 pm
How does the Japanese Shingon differ from Dzogchen or Mahamudra?
In Shingon, they don't have ritualistic intercourse nor the use of the mother and father tantras. Rather, they are more Mahayana, but more ritualistic. Shingon are more of a beginner version of Tibetan tantra, except no 8 offerings, no emptiness mantras, and so on. Even in advanced stages, there is no wrathful offerings and so on. Nor are there any oath-bound deities. Also, even in meditation of deities, they just see the "statue" of the deity that is still and shining light while reciting mantras, nothing with becoming the deity nor actions. Still, there are use of seed syllables(in Siddham of course) and similar mandalas with deities(except dressed more "Eastern" rather than Indian or Tibetan). Also, no guru yoga(unless you count paying respect to lineages and masters).
Almost forgot to mention, but during visualization, they also visualize tea and rice blessings pouring down on you.

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Re: Shingon?

Post by Nyedrag Yeshe » Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:29 pm

Tenma wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:41 pm
CedarTree wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:59 pm
How does the Japanese Shingon differ from Dzogchen or Mahamudra?
In Shingon, they don't have ritualistic intercourse nor the use of the mother and father tantras. Rather, they are more Mahayana, but more ritualistic. Shingon are more of a beginner version of Tibetan tantra, except no 8 offerings, no emptiness mantras, and so on. Even in advanced stages, there is no wrathful offerings and so on. Nor are there any oath-bound deities. Also, even in meditation of deities, they just see the "statue" of the deity that is still and shining light while reciting mantras, nothing with becoming the deity nor actions. Still, there are use of seed syllables(in Siddham of course) and similar mandalas with deities(except dressed more "Eastern" rather than Indian or Tibetan). Also, no guru yoga(unless you count paying respect to lineages and masters).
Not quite so! Shingon is full-fledged Vajrayana, more equivalent to Charya/Yoga tantra than common Mahayana, this difinition is best suited to Tendai. They do practice self-generation!
“Whatever has to happen, let it happen!”
“Whatever the situation is, it’s fine!”
“I really don’t need anything!
~Tsangpa Gyare Yeshe Dorje (1161-1211)
ओं पद्मोष्णीष विमले हूँ फट । ओं हनुफशभरहृदय स्वाहा॥
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔ ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོ།

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Re: Shingon?

Post by Nyedrag Yeshe » Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:34 pm

CedarTree wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:59 pm
How does the Japanese Shingon differ from Dzogchen or Mahamudra?
The Carya class of tantras holds the smallest number of texts of all the traditional classifications of tantric literatures. An important tantra in this class is the Mahavairocana Sutra. The presence of Buddha Vairocana is often evident in tantras of this class where he is often depicted in the centre of a mandala with four other Buddhas of his retinue placed to the four quarters, the cardinal directions. Importantly, during the Carya tantra class and literary period, there developed the salient innovation wherein the sadhaka is to cultivate identification with the deity in meditative absorption.

This class of literature was important to Kūkai (774–835) and the development of Shingon Buddhism. Kūkai traveled to China in 804 as part of the same expedition as Saichō. In the T'ang capital of Xian, Kūkai studied esoteric Buddhism and Sanskrit and received initiation from Huikuo. Kukai received a lineage of the Mahavairocana Sutra (Dainichikyo 大日経). On returning to Japan, Kūkai establish the esoteric school of Shingon (真言).

Guarisco & McLeod et al. (2005: p. 41) set Jamgon Kongtrul's (1813–1899) codification of this class in English as follows:

"Conduct tantra, where conduct encompasses both outer ritual activity and inner contemplation, involves training in a vast range of deeds while entering the inner reality that presents itself in visual and audible divine representations. The notion here is that of being close to the state of a perfect divine being, a state not yet fully realized. This limited view is overcome by visualizing oneself as the deity, understanding that form to be the appearance aspect of emptiness."[8]

Jinpa (2004) renders a section of 'A Garland of Views' (Tibetan: མན་ངག་ལྟ་བའི་ཕྲེང་བ, Wylie: man ngag lta ba'i phreng ba) that focuses Ubhaya tantra through the lens of the Two truths doctrine, a text attributed to Padmasambhava in the Mantrayana tradition, thus:

"The view of those who have entered the vehicle of Ubhaya-tantra is as follows. Whilst there are no origination and cessation on the ultimate level, on the conventional level one visualizes [oneself] in the form of a deity. This is cultivated on the basis of both the practice of meditative absorption endowed with four aspects as well as the [necessary] ritual articles and conditions."[9]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charya_ta ... a#Exegesis
“Whatever has to happen, let it happen!”
“Whatever the situation is, it’s fine!”
“I really don’t need anything!
~Tsangpa Gyare Yeshe Dorje (1161-1211)
ओं पद्मोष्णीष विमले हूँ फट । ओं हनुफशभरहृदय स्वाहा॥
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔ ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོ།

Tenma
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Re: Shingon?

Post by Tenma » Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:54 pm

Nyedrag Yeshe wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:29 pm
Tenma wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:41 pm
CedarTree wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:59 pm
How does the Japanese Shingon differ from Dzogchen or Mahamudra?
In Shingon, they don't have ritualistic intercourse nor the use of the mother and father tantras. Rather, they are more Mahayana, but more ritualistic. Shingon are more of a beginner version of Tibetan tantra, except no 8 offerings, no emptiness mantras, and so on. Even in advanced stages, there is no wrathful offerings and so on. Nor are there any oath-bound deities. Also, even in meditation of deities, they just see the "statue" of the deity that is still and shining light while reciting mantras, nothing with becoming the deity nor actions. Still, there are use of seed syllables(in Siddham of course) and similar mandalas with deities(except dressed more "Eastern" rather than Indian or Tibetan). Also, no guru yoga(unless you count paying respect to lineages and masters).
Not quite so! Shingon is full-fledged Vajrayana, more equivalent to Charya/Yoga tantra than common Mahayana, this difinition is best suited to Tendai. They do practice self-generation!
That's not what my friend said. His dad is a Shingon pastor(this is in Hawai'i) and they do not generate as the deity at all! It is an unthinkable action in their tradition(Watanabe lineage, unless the other lineages have the becoming deity thing).

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Re: Shingon?

Post by Tenma » Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:56 pm

Nyedrag Yeshe wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:29 pm
Tenma wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:41 pm
CedarTree wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:59 pm
How does the Japanese Shingon differ from Dzogchen or Mahamudra?
In Shingon, they don't have ritualistic intercourse nor the use of the mother and father tantras. Rather, they are more Mahayana, but more ritualistic. Shingon are more of a beginner version of Tibetan tantra, except no 8 offerings, no emptiness mantras, and so on. Even in advanced stages, there is no wrathful offerings and so on. Nor are there any oath-bound deities. Also, even in meditation of deities, they just see the "statue" of the deity that is still and shining light while reciting mantras, nothing with becoming the deity nor actions. Still, there are use of seed syllables(in Siddham of course) and similar mandalas with deities(except dressed more "Eastern" rather than Indian or Tibetan). Also, no guru yoga(unless you count paying respect to lineages and masters).
Not quite so! Shingon is full-fledged Vajrayana, more equivalent to Charya/Yoga tantra than common Mahayana, this difinition is best suited to Tendai. They do practice self-generation!
Not only that, but why aren't there any empowerments then? There isn't lung or anything, just meditate on the deity as if it's a statue! The Benzaiten(Saraswati) mantra is free to use, the sadhana isn't complex. Same with the others.

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Re: Shingon?

Post by Nyedrag Yeshe » Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:03 pm

Tenma wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:56 pm
Nyedrag Yeshe wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:29 pm
Tenma wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:41 pm


In Shingon, they don't have ritualistic intercourse nor the use of the mother and father tantras. Rather, they are more Mahayana, but more ritualistic. Shingon are more of a beginner version of Tibetan tantra, except no 8 offerings, no emptiness mantras, and so on. Even in advanced stages, there is no wrathful offerings and so on. Nor are there any oath-bound deities. Also, even in meditation of deities, they just see the "statue" of the deity that is still and shining light while reciting mantras, nothing with becoming the deity nor actions. Still, there are use of seed syllables(in Siddham of course) and similar mandalas with deities(except dressed more "Eastern" rather than Indian or Tibetan). Also, no guru yoga(unless you count paying respect to lineages and masters).
Not quite so! Shingon is full-fledged Vajrayana, more equivalent to Charya/Yoga tantra than common Mahayana, this difinition is best suited to Tendai. They do practice self-generation!
Not only that, but why aren't there any empowerments then? There isn't lung or anything, just meditate on the deity as if it's a statue! The Benzaiten(Saraswati) mantra is free to use, the sadhana isn't complex. Same with the others.
They do have empowerments. Even public empowerments for the two mandalas, look for Kechien Kanjo! Only ordained monks actually receive full abhisheka and transmission. Where did you get these ideas? They practice fire ceremonies with mantra, mudra and visualizations. They visualize mandalas and etc.
“Whatever has to happen, let it happen!”
“Whatever the situation is, it’s fine!”
“I really don’t need anything!
~Tsangpa Gyare Yeshe Dorje (1161-1211)
ओं पद्मोष्णीष विमले हूँ फट । ओं हनुफशभरहृदय स्वाहा॥
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔ ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོ།

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Nyedrag Yeshe
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Re: Shingon?

Post by Nyedrag Yeshe » Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:05 pm

Tenma wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:56 pm
Nyedrag Yeshe wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:29 pm
Tenma wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:41 pm


In Shingon, they don't have ritualistic intercourse nor the use of the mother and father tantras. Rather, they are more Mahayana, but more ritualistic. Shingon are more of a beginner version of Tibetan tantra, except no 8 offerings, no emptiness mantras, and so on. Even in advanced stages, there is no wrathful offerings and so on. Nor are there any oath-bound deities. Also, even in meditation of deities, they just see the "statue" of the deity that is still and shining light while reciting mantras, nothing with becoming the deity nor actions. Still, there are use of seed syllables(in Siddham of course) and similar mandalas with deities(except dressed more "Eastern" rather than Indian or Tibetan). Also, no guru yoga(unless you count paying respect to lineages and masters).
Not quite so! Shingon is full-fledged Vajrayana, more equivalent to Charya/Yoga tantra than common Mahayana, this difinition is best suited to Tendai. They do practice self-generation!
Not only that, but why aren't there any empowerments then? There isn't lung or anything, just meditate on the deity as if it's a statue! The Benzaiten(Saraswati) mantra is free to use, the sadhana isn't complex. Same with the others.
I'm not sure how to answer your counterfactual question, and I don't know anything about the Shingon temple in the UK.

If your question is how are ordination and abhiseka different in esoteric Buddhism, then that's addressable.

Exoteric Buddhism does not have abhiseka (although it is mentioned in some exoteric sutras), only ordination and whatever other training a school may have.

Abhiseka is of the highest importance in esoteric Buddhism. Without it, you haven't studied esoteric Buddhism.

Ordination comes at the beginning of a priest's training in Shingon. It is the first thing that you receive. It is called tokudo 得度 in Japanese. It means you are ready to begin training. Even though you are technically a priest at this point, you still have a very long way to go. You certainly are not a teacher yet. You cannot run a temple. You can't do much of anything except study and train. ;)

Abhiseka is of several varieties. It is sometimes called empowerment, initiation, etc. It is called kanjo 灌頂 in Japanese. The most common kinds are given below. Ordination is required for all of these except the first one.

(1) There is the abhiseka open to all without any prerequisites or commitments for laypeople called kechien kanjo 結緣灌頂, given for example at Koyasan twice a year to anyone. This is for establishing a connection with one of the two mandalas. No specific practice is given.

(2) There is the abhiseka given with samaya for a single deity, providing one mudra and mantra. This is called jumyo kanjo 受明灌頂. This is only given today to certain priests under a certain specific set of conditions, such as advanced age not permitting fulfillment of the prerequisites in (3). There are some limited prerequisites. This permits only the practice of the single deity received.

(3) There is the abhiseka with samaya that permits study of the advanced teachings called dembo kanjo 傳法灌頂. This is given every year. The prerequisite is completion of the deity yoga in four parts called shido kegyo 四度加行. This takes place over an grueling and intensive 100-day retreat. A person is styled an ajari 阿闍梨 (teacher) after receiving this abhiseka, but in actuality is not yet ready to teach by any means without further years of study and practice. This person is now ready to study properly and receive deeper instructions. A person who receives this can operate a recognized temple upon taking and passing the qualifying test mentioned above. A person who passes that test and has a registered temple can teach up to shido kegyo at that temple. (Note that running a temple and teaching are treated as two different things.)

(4) The abhiseka for a master teacher is called gakushu kanjo 學習灌頂. This is given once in 10+ years. A person who receives this is called a Dento Dai-Ajari 傳燈大阿闍梨. I explained this already above.

I will abbreviate the other and very rare kinds of abhiseka. There is one given only once in 30 years for example.

I hope this answers your question.
viewtopic.php?t=13698
“Whatever has to happen, let it happen!”
“Whatever the situation is, it’s fine!”
“I really don’t need anything!
~Tsangpa Gyare Yeshe Dorje (1161-1211)
ओं पद्मोष्णीष विमले हूँ फट । ओं हनुफशभरहृदय स्वाहा॥
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔ ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོ།

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Re: Shingon?

Post by Nyedrag Yeshe » Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:07 pm

Rev. Eijo is a full-fledged Shingon monk, he is very adamant by affirming that there is deity yoga in Shingon!
“Whatever has to happen, let it happen!”
“Whatever the situation is, it’s fine!”
“I really don’t need anything!
~Tsangpa Gyare Yeshe Dorje (1161-1211)
ओं पद्मोष्णीष विमले हूँ फट । ओं हनुफशभरहृदय स्वाहा॥
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔ ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོ།

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Nyedrag Yeshe
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Re: Shingon?

Post by Nyedrag Yeshe » Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:09 pm

The primary difference between Shingon and Tibetan Buddhism is that there is no Inner Tantra or Anuttarayoga Tantra in Shingon. Shingon has what corresponds to the Kriyā, Caryā, and Yoga classes of tantras in Tibetan Buddhism. The Tibetan system of classifying tantras into four classes is not used in Shingon.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shingon_B ... ay.C4.81na
“Whatever has to happen, let it happen!”
“Whatever the situation is, it’s fine!”
“I really don’t need anything!
~Tsangpa Gyare Yeshe Dorje (1161-1211)
ओं पद्मोष्णीष विमले हूँ फट । ओं हनुफशभरहृदय स्वाहा॥
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔ ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོ།

Tenma
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Re: Shingon?

Post by Tenma » Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:13 pm

Nyedrag Yeshe wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:03 pm
Tenma wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:56 pm
Nyedrag Yeshe wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:29 pm


Not quite so! Shingon is full-fledged Vajrayana, more equivalent to Charya/Yoga tantra than common Mahayana, this difinition is best suited to Tendai. They do practice self-generation!
Not only that, but why aren't there any empowerments then? There isn't lung or anything, just meditate on the deity as if it's a statue! The Benzaiten(Saraswati) mantra is free to use, the sadhana isn't complex. Same with the others.
They do have empowerments. Even public empowerments for the two mandalas, look for Kechien Kanjo! Only ordained monks actually receive full abhisheka and transmission. Where did you get these ideas? They practice fire ceremonies with mantra, mudra and visualizations. They visualize mandalas and etc.
Yes, they visualize mandalas, have mudras and fire pujas, and all that, but not in the Tibetan sense. Also, I have never seen a Shingon empowerment in the temples. All I've seen are ceremonies and that's it. But then only monks having empowerments, that I have not seen(well I haven't seen Shingon monks, so I don't know what they do).

Tenma
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Re: Shingon?

Post by Tenma » Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:14 pm

Nyedrag Yeshe wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:09 pm
The primary difference between Shingon and Tibetan Buddhism is that there is no Inner Tantra or Anuttarayoga Tantra in Shingon. Shingon has what corresponds to the Kriyā, Caryā, and Yoga classes of tantras in Tibetan Buddhism. The Tibetan system of classifying tantras into four classes is not used in Shingon.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shingon_B ... ay.C4.81na
Not too sure on Kirya, Carya, and all that(sorry, but I still don't know much on Tibetan Buddhism), but I have to say, LOTS of worldly deities.

TaTa
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Re: Shingon?

Post by TaTa » Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:33 pm

Tenma wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:54 pm
Nyedrag Yeshe wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 7:29 pm
Tenma wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:41 pm


In Shingon, they don't have ritualistic intercourse nor the use of the mother and father tantras. Rather, they are more Mahayana, but more ritualistic. Shingon are more of a beginner version of Tibetan tantra, except no 8 offerings, no emptiness mantras, and so on. Even in advanced stages, there is no wrathful offerings and so on. Nor are there any oath-bound deities. Also, even in meditation of deities, they just see the "statue" of the deity that is still and shining light while reciting mantras, nothing with becoming the deity nor actions. Still, there are use of seed syllables(in Siddham of course) and similar mandalas with deities(except dressed more "Eastern" rather than Indian or Tibetan). Also, no guru yoga(unless you count paying respect to lineages and masters).
Not quite so! Shingon is full-fledged Vajrayana, more equivalent to Charya/Yoga tantra than common Mahayana, this difinition is best suited to Tendai. They do practice self-generation!
That's not what my friend said. His dad is a Shingon pastor(this is in Hawai'i) and they do not generate as the deity at all! It is an unthinkable action in their tradition(Watanabe lineage, unless the other lineages have the becoming deity thing).
Shinzen young who was a shingon monk for 4 years described his practice as self generation

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Re: Shingon?

Post by DGA » Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:20 pm

TaTa wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:33 pm

Shinzen young who was a shingon monk for 4 years described his practice as self generation
What does he mean by the term "self-generation"? Does his meaning coincide with what is meant by the term as translated by Tibetan Buddhists?

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Re: Shingon?

Post by DGA » Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:21 pm

CedarTree wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 5:59 pm
How does the Japanese Shingon differ from Dzogchen or Mahamudra?
You'll have better luck asking about Shingon in the Shingon sub-forum.

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Re: Shingon?

Post by Coëmgenu » Fri Nov 24, 2017 9:40 pm

CedarTree wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:42 pm
Virgo wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 6:40 pm
It's lower tantra.

Kevin
More details needed lol
Intersectarian tantra-bashing is my favourite kind!
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmas. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmas. The conventional truth establishes all dharmas.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Re: Shingon?

Post by narhwal90 » Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:04 pm

TaTa wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 8:33 pm

Shinzen young who was a shingon monk for 4 years described his practice as self generation
I'm in the middle of an interview with Shinzen on a secular buddhism podcast, he's most eloquent- he mentioned his Shingon antecedents but is pretty good at the psycho-spiritual stuff keeping to the secular format. I would be most interested in hearing more from him.

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