Mahamudra & Dzogchen - The differences

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
User avatar
CedarTree
Posts: 556
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:13 pm

Mahamudra & Dzogchen - The differences

Post by CedarTree » Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:40 pm

A lot of the time we focus on how Mahamudra and Dzogchen are the same and have the same understanding.

I am curious what is different about them and what differences in understanding they have.

:anjali:

Practice, Practice, Practice

Malcolm
Posts: 31058
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Mahamudra & Dzogchen - The differences

Post by Malcolm » Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:54 pm

CedarTree wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:40 pm
A lot of the time we focus on how Mahamudra and Dzogchen are the same and have the same understanding.

I am curious what is different about them and what differences in understanding they have.

:anjali:
Thögal.

Simon E.
Posts: 7434
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Mahamudra & Dzogchen - The differences

Post by Simon E. » Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:56 pm

Do we? ( focus on how Mahamudra and Dzogchen are the same) :smile:
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

User avatar
CedarTree
Posts: 556
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:13 pm

Re: Mahamudra & Dzogchen - The differences

Post by CedarTree » Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:27 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:54 pm
CedarTree wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:40 pm
A lot of the time we focus on how Mahamudra and Dzogchen are the same and have the same understanding.

I am curious what is different about them and what differences in understanding they have.

:anjali:
Thögal.
Is that the only big difference? *P.s. Thank you for putting that I actually really like that answer :)*

Now if only you would reply to my other thread about my question on how the three kayas are not present in the result! ;)
Simon E. wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:56 pm
Do we? ( focus on how Mahamudra and Dzogchen are the same) :smile:
Lol sometimes ;)

Practice, Practice, Practice

Simon E.
Posts: 7434
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Mahamudra & Dzogchen - The differences

Post by Simon E. » Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:02 pm

Fair enough. :smile:
“The difference between us and Tara is that she knows she doesn’t exist”.

User avatar
passel
Posts: 585
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 5:30 am

Re: Mahamudra & Dzogchen - The differences

Post by passel » Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:20 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:54 pm
CedarTree wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:40 pm
A lot of the time we focus on how Mahamudra and Dzogchen are the same and have the same understanding.

I am curious what is different about them and what differences in understanding they have.

:anjali:
Thögal.
Not a controversial statement- but I do recall reading in Essential Mahamudra- Thrangu Rinpoche’s commentary on the long Tashi Namgyal- a statement but Thrangu that the Mahamudra equivalent of Thogal is something called ‘lada’. I don’t speak Tibetan and haven’t come across this term elsewhere. So I wonder what he could have meant. There just wasn’t enough context in the passage to see what he was getting at.
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious

User avatar
CedarTree
Posts: 556
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:13 pm

Re: Mahamudra & Dzogchen - The differences

Post by CedarTree » Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:12 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 6:02 pm
Fair enough. :smile:
What do you think about the differences :) p.s. I like the happy faces haha always brightens me day

Practice, Practice, Practice

User avatar
CedarTree
Posts: 556
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:13 pm

Re: Mahamudra & Dzogchen - The differences

Post by CedarTree » Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:12 pm

passel wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:20 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:54 pm
CedarTree wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:40 pm
A lot of the time we focus on how Mahamudra and Dzogchen are the same and have the same understanding.

I am curious what is different about them and what differences in understanding they have.

:anjali:
Thögal.
Not a controversial statement- but I do recall reading in Essential Mahamudra- Thrangu Rinpoche’s commentary on the long Tashi Namgyal- a statement but Thrangu that the Mahamudra equivalent of Thogal is something called ‘lada’. I don’t speak Tibetan and haven’t come across this term elsewhere. So I wonder what he could have meant. There just wasn’t enough context in the passage to see what he was getting at.
Thanks Passel I'll check this out, great contribution :)

Practice, Practice, Practice

Malcolm
Posts: 31058
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Mahamudra & Dzogchen - The differences

Post by Malcolm » Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:16 pm

passel wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:20 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:54 pm
CedarTree wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:40 pm
A lot of the time we focus on how Mahamudra and Dzogchen are the same and have the same understanding.

I am curious what is different about them and what differences in understanding they have.

:anjali:
Thögal.
Not a controversial statement- but I do recall reading in Essential Mahamudra- Thrangu Rinpoche’s commentary on the long Tashi Namgyal- a statement but Thrangu that the Mahamudra equivalent of Thogal is something called ‘lada’. I don’t speak Tibetan and haven’t come across this term elsewhere. So I wonder what he could have meant. There just wasn’t enough context in the passage to see what he was getting at.

la bzla ba, it means "to transcend." This is merely a similarity in name, i.e. thod rgal as skipping stages. In actuality however, the concept of la bzla ba also exists in Dzogchen, but it has a different usage, while meaning "to transcend".

I had a brief conversation about this issue with Ringu Tulku, based on some speculative statements he made in his book on the RIme Movement. However, in the end he stated to me that the difference between Dzogchen and Mahāmudra was thogal.

User avatar
passel
Posts: 585
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 5:30 am

Re: Mahamudra & Dzogchen - The differences

Post by passel » Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:27 am

Thanks for the clarification, this makes sense to me.
So, I am curious, though- leaving aside people like Tsele Natsok Rangdrol and others who say the only difference between Dz and MM is in name, lamas who don't share that view will often say that MM has methods that equate to Trekchod but not to Thogel. But those same lamas may also say that Thogel is the natural outgrowth and expression of Trekchod. So if MM has Trekchod, what is it that prevents Thogel from manifesting in MM practitioners? I'm going to speculate that the answer is 'direct introduction'/ specific blessings from the lama; that Thogel must be specifically pointed out, and that happens only in the context of specifically Dz teachings.
Correct me if i'm wrong, anyone.
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious

User avatar
heart
Posts: 4921
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Mahamudra & Dzogchen - The differences

Post by heart » Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:01 am

passel wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 12:27 am
Thanks for the clarification, this makes sense to me.
So, I am curious, though- leaving aside people like Tsele Natsok Rangdrol and others who say the only difference between Dz and MM is in name, lamas who don't share that view will often say that MM has methods that equate to Trekchod but not to Thogel. But those same lamas may also say that Thogel is the natural outgrowth and expression of Trekchod. So if MM has Trekchod, what is it that prevents Thogel from manifesting in MM practitioners? I'm going to speculate that the answer is 'direct introduction'/ specific blessings from the lama; that Thogel must be specifically pointed out, and that happens only in the context of specifically Dz teachings.
Correct me if i'm wrong, anyone.
According to Tulku Urgyen (and also Chökyi Nyima Rinpoche) a Mahamudra practitioner will naturally start seeing the visions. They might need some instructions to follow the path of Tögal but the visions will start by themselves under the right circumstances.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

User avatar
passel
Posts: 585
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 5:30 am

Re: Mahamudra & Dzogchen - The differences

Post by passel » Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:40 am

So that’s fascinating. Seems right in line with their overall approach. I wonder if it’s the case that those naturally occurring visions just remain basically nyam unless you have the right instruction, blessings, and aptitude to make them path.

To mix metaphors, maybe the MM yogi would be like the child viewing a temple, while the Dz yogi would be if that child crawled into the artwork.
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious

User avatar
CedarTree
Posts: 556
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:13 pm

Re: Mahamudra & Dzogchen - The differences

Post by CedarTree » Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:56 pm

Are there any good internet resources, books, or so forth that explain the historical developments of both Mahamudra and Dzogchen?

Seems surprising that two of the higher teachings that developed in the same region wouldn't include parts of eachs teachings. Including Thogal.

Practice, Practice, Practice

User avatar
heart
Posts: 4921
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Mahamudra & Dzogchen - The differences

Post by heart » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:01 pm

CedarTree wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:56 pm
Are there any good internet resources, books, or so forth that explain the historical developments of both Mahamudra and Dzogchen?

Seems surprising that two of the higher teachings that developed in the same region wouldn't include parts of eachs teachings. Including Thogal.
It is the Tibetan obsession with keeping the lineages pure, one don't "develop" things as much as people believe.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

User avatar
CedarTree
Posts: 556
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:13 pm

Re: Mahamudra & Dzogchen - The differences

Post by CedarTree » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:10 pm

heart wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:01 pm
CedarTree wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:56 pm
Are there any good internet resources, books, or so forth that explain the historical developments of both Mahamudra and Dzogchen?

Seems surprising that two of the higher teachings that developed in the same region wouldn't include parts of eachs teachings. Including Thogal.
It is the Tibetan obsession with keeping the lineages pure, one don't "develop" things as much as people believe.

/magnus
Ahh interesting, surprising though due to the nature of Thogal you would think those in the Mahamudra camp would have heard of it and been like "This is pretty epic, we should probably incorporate this" Lol

Practice, Practice, Practice

Malcolm
Posts: 31058
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Mahamudra & Dzogchen - The differences

Post by Malcolm » Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:38 pm

CedarTree wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:10 pm
heart wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:01 pm
CedarTree wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:56 pm
Are there any good internet resources, books, or so forth that explain the historical developments of both Mahamudra and Dzogchen?

Seems surprising that two of the higher teachings that developed in the same region wouldn't include parts of eachs teachings. Including Thogal.
It is the Tibetan obsession with keeping the lineages pure, one don't "develop" things as much as people believe.

/magnus
Ahh interesting, surprising though due to the nature of Thogal you would think those in the Mahamudra camp would have heard of it and been like "This is pretty epic, we should probably incorporate this" Lol

This discussion is not really appropriate. If you want to understand the difference you should endeavor to receive these instructions from qualified teachers.

User avatar
CedarTree
Posts: 556
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:13 pm

Re: Mahamudra & Dzogchen - The differences

Post by CedarTree » Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:18 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:38 pm
CedarTree wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:10 pm
heart wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:01 pm


It is the Tibetan obsession with keeping the lineages pure, one don't "develop" things as much as people believe.

/magnus
Ahh interesting, surprising though due to the nature of Thogal you would think those in the Mahamudra camp would have heard of it and been like "This is pretty epic, we should probably incorporate this" Lol

This discussion is not really appropriate. If you want to understand the difference you should endeavor to receive these instructions from qualified teachers.
I was actually just reading another thread and it came to me, are you taking students?

Practice, Practice, Practice

User avatar
CedarTree
Posts: 556
Joined: Fri Jun 23, 2017 10:13 pm

Re: Mahamudra & Dzogchen - The differences

Post by CedarTree » Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:20 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:38 pm
CedarTree wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:10 pm
heart wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:01 pm


It is the Tibetan obsession with keeping the lineages pure, one don't "develop" things as much as people believe.

/magnus
Ahh interesting, surprising though due to the nature of Thogal you would think those in the Mahamudra camp would have heard of it and been like "This is pretty epic, we should probably incorporate this" Lol

This discussion is not really appropriate. If you want to understand the difference you should endeavor to receive these instructions from qualified teachers.
I also think that there are many teachers not as knowledgeable about the different concepts and histories around those concepts as some of the posters like you and Kevin. Just the reality, being able to understand your resource base, what you have studied, learn from you. It's almost invaluable.

Practice, Practice, Practice

User avatar
passel
Posts: 585
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 5:30 am

Re: Mahamudra & Dzogchen - The differences

Post by passel » Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:22 pm

Why’d you bring it up?
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious

Malcolm
Posts: 31058
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Mahamudra & Dzogchen - The differences

Post by Malcolm » Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:22 pm

CedarTree wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:20 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:38 pm
CedarTree wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 5:10 pm


Ahh interesting, surprising though due to the nature of Thogal you would think those in the Mahamudra camp would have heard of it and been like "This is pretty epic, we should probably incorporate this" Lol

This discussion is not really appropriate. If you want to understand the difference you should endeavor to receive these instructions from qualified teachers.
I also think that there are many teachers not as knowledgeable about the different concepts and histories around those concepts as some of the posters like you and Kevin. Just the reality, being able to understand your resource base, what you have studied, learn from you. It's almost invaluable.

I understand the desire to learn about these things, but it is not about different concepts and histories, it is about experience and realization.

Post Reply

Return to “Tibetan Buddhism”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: heart, javier.espinoza.t, merilingpa, namoh, Silent Bob1, Terma and 128 guests