How to understand the body correctly

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Pero
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Re: How to understand the body correctly

Post by Pero » Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:29 am

Josef wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:47 pm
If you really want to understand this topic from the Vajrayana/Dzogchen point of view you will need empowerments, transmissions, direct introduction etc.
After that, there are English translations of works by Longchenpa and others that explain the topic clearly.
Which are by Longchenpa on this topic?
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

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Josef
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Re: How to understand the body correctly

Post by Josef » Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:51 am

Pero wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:29 am
Josef wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:47 pm
If you really want to understand this topic from the Vajrayana/Dzogchen point of view you will need empowerments, transmissions, direct introduction etc.
After that, there are English translations of works by Longchenpa and others that explain the topic clearly.
Which are by Longchenpa on this topic?
Pmed
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

Pero
Posts: 2142
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:54 pm

Re: How to understand the body correctly

Post by Pero » Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:24 am

Josef wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:51 am
Pero wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:29 am
Josef wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:47 pm
If you really want to understand this topic from the Vajrayana/Dzogchen point of view you will need empowerments, transmissions, direct introduction etc.
After that, there are English translations of works by Longchenpa and others that explain the topic clearly.
Which are by Longchenpa on this topic?
Pmed
I didn't get anything?
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

pael
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Re: How to understand the body correctly

Post by pael » Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:56 pm

Is this restricted? Are there e-book?
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

diamind
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Re: How to understand the body correctly

Post by diamind » Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:27 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:12 pm
CedarTree wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:10 pm
Tell me more about how the body and mind is the deity.
If anyone told you, they'd be breaking their indestructible wind.
This guy is probably right and I'm seriously not qualified to say anymore. :thinking:

diamind
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Re: How to understand the body correctly

Post by diamind » Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:33 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:36 pm
Vasana wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:22 pm
Norwegian wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:32 pm

It's pretty much understood that one should have received empowerment before one studies a text like this, not to mention have had teachings on it too.
It's not a restricted text as far as I know. It doesn't contain instructions. Teachings and empowerment are obviously ideal but an academic dissertation on the topic is already freely circulating.
It does not have a note saying "This text is restricted" no, but it's a topic that deals with something that belongs to Vajrayana, and as such it is only proper to study after having entered the gate of empowerment. That's really quite basic. Someone who hasn't entered the gate of empowerment and as such has not received Vajrayana teachings, should not study creation stage or completion stage, for example.

Of course people can do whatever they want to, like they always do, but I'm just saying that a book like this will actually be useless to someone who hasn't received Vajrayana. It'll just be intellectual masturbation and a waste of time.
So reciting "om mani padme hung" is a no go?

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Vasana
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Re: How to understand the body correctly

Post by Vasana » Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:53 pm

pael wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:56 pm
Is this restricted? Are there e-book?
Read the rest of the thread.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

SunWuKong
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Re: How to understand the body correctly

Post by SunWuKong » Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:52 pm

CedarTree wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:40 pm
In a lot of different schools of Buddhism the body and or the yogic understanding is not given a lot of weight or very very subtle in it's appreciation.

In Tibetan Buddhism it seems equal in understanding body and mind?

I.e. Understanding how mind rides the different movements of the body and such.

What is the correct way to understand the body and the correct way to understand the mind in Tibetan Buddhism?
I don't know about Tibetan Buddhism, but if the Crown Chakra opens, it's a good thing right? If the Third Eye opens it's also a good thing? Seated in the Naga Throne is good? Samadhi is best experienced during practice in lotus, mountain or corpse pose? In Tibet they use all 3 of these right?
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

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Josef
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Re: How to understand the body correctly

Post by Josef » Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:20 pm

Pero wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:24 am
Josef wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:51 am
Pero wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:29 am

Which are by Longchenpa on this topic?
Pmed
I didn't get anything?
Weird.
It’s in the tsig don dzod
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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CedarTree
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Re: How to understand the body correctly

Post by CedarTree » Sat Dec 09, 2017 6:31 pm

Norwegian wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:56 pm
Josef wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:47 pm
If you really want to understand this topic from the Vajrayana/Dzogchen point of view you will need empowerments, transmissions, direct introduction etc.
After that, there are English translations of works by Longchenpa and others that explain the topic clearly.
Indeed. And then, having received these things, then studying these texts will actually make sense. They become useful.
I think this is on point but we also shouldn't take this to the extreme absurd level.

People can understand and apply more than I think sometimes we give them credit for.

Especially when we talk about other Buddhists that have lived in monasteries, studied the texts at a near academic level and have some intense meditation practice already under qualified teachers in different traditions.

A bit of common sense goes a long way.

Practice, Practice, Practice

Pero
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Re: How to understand the body correctly

Post by Pero » Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:38 pm

Josef wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:20 pm
Pero wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 10:24 am
Josef wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:51 am

Pmed
I didn't get anything?
Weird.
It’s in the tsig don dzod
Ah... Duh! Can't believe I couldn't think of it haha.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

Pero
Posts: 2142
Joined: Tue Aug 31, 2010 8:54 pm

Re: How to understand the body correctly

Post by Pero » Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:42 pm

CedarTree wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 6:31 pm
Norwegian wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:56 pm
Josef wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:47 pm
If you really want to understand this topic from the Vajrayana/Dzogchen point of view you will need empowerments, transmissions, direct introduction etc.
After that, there are English translations of works by Longchenpa and others that explain the topic clearly.
Indeed. And then, having received these things, then studying these texts will actually make sense. They become useful.
I think this is on point but we also shouldn't take this to the extreme absurd level.

People can understand and apply more than I think sometimes we give them credit for.

Especially when we talk about other Buddhists that have lived in monasteries, studied the texts at a near academic level and have some intense meditation practice already under qualified teachers in different traditions.

A bit of common sense goes a long way.
While I think they're being a little bit uptight, what you're saying is not a "bit of common sense". It's not how Vajrayana works. In Vajrayana you can't "apply" without receiving the required transmission(s). I mean, you can try to apply, but the likelihood of you getting the right result from that is probably pretty much zero.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

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CedarTree
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Re: How to understand the body correctly

Post by CedarTree » Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:48 pm

Pero wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:42 pm
CedarTree wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 6:31 pm
Norwegian wrote:
Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:56 pm

Indeed. And then, having received these things, then studying these texts will actually make sense. They become useful.
I think this is on point but we also shouldn't take this to the extreme absurd level.

People can understand and apply more than I think sometimes we give them credit for.

Especially when we talk about other Buddhists that have lived in monasteries, studied the texts at a near academic level and have some intense meditation practice already under qualified teachers in different traditions.

A bit of common sense goes a long way.
While I think they're being a little bit uptight, what you're saying is not a "bit of common sense". It's not how Vajrayana works. In Vajrayana you can't "apply" without receiving the required transmission(s). I mean, you can try to apply, but the likelihood of you getting the right result from that is probably pretty much zero.
I would agree with this on certain practices and understandings that are tied together at a level higher than the conceptual and discursive. Even then maybe exceptions in the cases of intense adepts.

However on the conceptual and discursive level the idea that people of good intelligence can't grasp things is absurd. Being able to understand the two levels of what is being talked about is maybe key.

Practice, Practice, Practice

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Josef
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Re: How to understand the body correctly

Post by Josef » Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:35 pm

CedarTree wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:48 pm
Pero wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:42 pm
CedarTree wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 6:31 pm


I think this is on point but we also shouldn't take this to the extreme absurd level.

People can understand and apply more than I think sometimes we give them credit for.

Especially when we talk about other Buddhists that have lived in monasteries, studied the texts at a near academic level and have some intense meditation practice already under qualified teachers in different traditions.

A bit of common sense goes a long way.
While I think they're being a little bit uptight, what you're saying is not a "bit of common sense". It's not how Vajrayana works. In Vajrayana you can't "apply" without receiving the required transmission(s). I mean, you can try to apply, but the likelihood of you getting the right result from that is probably pretty much zero.
I would agree with this on certain practices and understandings that are tied together at a level higher than the conceptual and discursive. Even then maybe exceptions in the cases of intense adepts.

However on the conceptual and discursive level the idea that people of good intelligence can't grasp things is absurd. Being able to understand the two levels of what is being talked about is maybe key.
It’s not a matter of intelligence, it’s a matter of view, conduct, and transmission.
To put it simply, an intellectual understanding of the topic is useless without the foundation for applying that knowledge.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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CedarTree
Posts: 556
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Re: How to understand the body correctly

Post by CedarTree » Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:54 pm

Josef wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:35 pm
CedarTree wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:48 pm
Pero wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:42 pm

While I think they're being a little bit uptight, what you're saying is not a "bit of common sense". It's not how Vajrayana works. In Vajrayana you can't "apply" without receiving the required transmission(s). I mean, you can try to apply, but the likelihood of you getting the right result from that is probably pretty much zero.
I would agree with this on certain practices and understandings that are tied together at a level higher than the conceptual and discursive. Even then maybe exceptions in the cases of intense adepts.

However on the conceptual and discursive level the idea that people of good intelligence can't grasp things is absurd. Being able to understand the two levels of what is being talked about is maybe key.
It’s not a matter of intelligence, it’s a matter of view, conduct, and transmission.
To put it simply, an intellectual understanding of the topic is useless without the foundation for applying that knowledge.
You missed what I was saying. It's like Zazen. You can write about it but it's not the same as practicing. However.... doesn't mean the intellectual, discursive, and content isn't drawn out of it and articulated in skillfull means.

Hopefully that helps. I know what you are saying and I am not combating the point, I think you and others are to use to that. Simply also pointing something out that you miss when you go to far in the other direction.

Practice, Practice, Practice

Pero
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Re: How to understand the body correctly

Post by Pero » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:57 am

CedarTree wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 7:48 pm
However on the conceptual and discursive level the idea that people of good intelligence can't grasp things is absurd. Being able to understand the two levels of what is being talked about is maybe key.
I can agree with that to an extent. Thing is probably some things you can't really "get" without doing the practical work.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

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