Where is Sakyamuni Buddha?

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Re: Where is Sakyamuni Buddha?

Post by heart » Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:23 pm

odysseus wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:20 am
Beneath that there is an ultimate reality,
"Ultimate reality" is a moronic idea, it just means some type of a common truth which is valid for everyone. The "ultimate truth" is that there exists only "the one and only, singular" reality in the Universe.
It is a quite normal Buddhist idea, if you think Buddhism is "moronic" perhaps this isn't the right place for you.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Where is Sakyamuni Buddha?

Post by DGA » Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:12 pm

heart wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:23 pm
odysseus wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:20 am
Beneath that there is an ultimate reality,
"Ultimate reality" is a moronic idea, it just means some type of a common truth which is valid for everyone. The "ultimate truth" is that there exists only "the one and only, singular" reality in the Universe.
It is a quite normal Buddhist idea, if you think Buddhism is "moronic" perhaps this isn't the right place for you.

/magnus
What is ultimate reality? What does that phrase refer to in Buddhist teachings?

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Re: Where is Sakyamuni Buddha?

Post by heart » Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:48 pm

DGA wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:12 pm
heart wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:23 pm
odysseus wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:20 am


"Ultimate reality" is a moronic idea, it just means some type of a common truth which is valid for everyone. The "ultimate truth" is that there exists only "the one and only, singular" reality in the Universe.
It is a quite normal Buddhist idea, if you think Buddhism is "moronic" perhaps this isn't the right place for you.

/magnus
What is ultimate reality? What does that phrase refer to in Buddhist teachings?
How about emptiness?

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

PeterC
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Re: Where is Sakyamuni Buddha?

Post by PeterC » Sat Feb 03, 2018 6:36 am

mechashivaz wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:56 pm
Where is Sakyamuni Buddha? After He passed into parinirvana is He said to have taken abode in any celestial realm? After all, we are in His pure land right now so how does the tradition understand Him actively helping sentient beings other than through the established teachings?
Perhaps it would help to clarify within which system you are asking the question, as the answer varies. If you want the absolute simplest form of the answer, which is sufficient for the purposes of most practice, I’d go with the Avyakata-Samyutta version, i.e.:

“...the Tathagata is deep, boundless, hard to fathom, like the ocean. 'The Tathagata exists after death' doesn't apply. 'The Tathagata doesn't exist after death doesn't apply. 'The Tathagata both exists and doesn't exist after death' doesn't apply. 'The Tathagata neither exists nor doesn't exist after death' doesn't apply.“

Statements of this kind can be interpreted in all sorts of ways. However you could decide, and I believe it’s a very reasonable choice, that it’s not necessary to decide ex ante on an answer to this question. It doesn’t greatly matter what particular philosophical view you take of this question provided you don’t embrace an eternalist or nihilist view as the experience developed through practice is considerably more important.

And in any case, our teacher Sakyamuni will not magically appear riding a white elephant if we hold the right view of him. Our success or failure in our practice is mostly down to our own efforts. (Though if you do find a way to make him appear, white elephant or not, please tell me how...)

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Re: Where is Sakyamuni Buddha?

Post by odysseus » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:23 am

heart wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:23 pm
odysseus wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:20 am
Beneath that there is an ultimate reality,
"Ultimate reality" is a moronic idea, it just means some type of a common truth which is valid for everyone. The "ultimate truth" is that there exists only "the one and only, singular" reality in the Universe.
It is a quite normal Buddhist idea, if you think Buddhism is "moronic" perhaps this isn't the right place for you.

/magnus
You are wrong, but I should not have said "moronic". My point is that this idea is not a part of Buddhism.

But you are welcome in Buddhism too, even if I understand you are not yet ready for it.

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Re: Where is Sakyamuni Buddha?

Post by heart » Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:34 am

odysseus wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:23 am
heart wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:23 pm
odysseus wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:20 am


"Ultimate reality" is a moronic idea, it just means some type of a common truth which is valid for everyone. The "ultimate truth" is that there exists only "the one and only, singular" reality in the Universe.
It is a quite normal Buddhist idea, if you think Buddhism is "moronic" perhaps this isn't the right place for you.

/magnus
You are wrong, but I should not have said "moronic". My point is that this idea is not a part of Buddhism.

But you are welcome in Buddhism too, even if I understand you are not yet ready for it.
:smile: http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?title=Two_truths

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Where is Sakyamuni Buddha?

Post by DGA » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:33 pm

heart wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:48 pm
DGA wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:12 pm
heart wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:23 pm


It is a quite normal Buddhist idea, if you think Buddhism is "moronic" perhaps this isn't the right place for you.

/magnus
What is ultimate reality? What does that phrase refer to in Buddhist teachings?
How about emptiness?

/magnus
OK, I understand where you're coming from, but I would use different language to describe it. Is emptiness a reality? Or is emptiness ultimately a way of saying that there is no reality?

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Re: Where is Sakyamuni Buddha?

Post by heart » Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:58 pm

DGA wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:33 pm
heart wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:48 pm
DGA wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:12 pm


What is ultimate reality? What does that phrase refer to in Buddhist teachings?
How about emptiness?

/magnus
OK, I understand where you're coming from, but I would use different language to describe it. Is emptiness a reality? Or is emptiness ultimately a way of saying that there is no reality?
It is good that you understand that I come from standard Mahayana, absolute and relative truth also come from that teaching.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

DGA
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Re: Where is Sakyamuni Buddha?

Post by DGA » Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:07 pm

heart wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:58 pm
DGA wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:33 pm
heart wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:48 pm


How about emptiness?

/magnus
OK, I understand where you're coming from, but I would use different language to describe it. Is emptiness a reality? Or is emptiness ultimately a way of saying that there is no reality?
It is good that you understand that I come from standard Mahayana, absolute and relative truth also come from that teaching.

/magnus
Yes, relative and ultimate truth are conventional Mahayana.

We were discussing ultimate reality.

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Re: Where is Sakyamuni Buddha?

Post by heart » Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:14 pm

DGA wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:07 pm
heart wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:58 pm
DGA wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:33 pm


OK, I understand where you're coming from, but I would use different language to describe it. Is emptiness a reality? Or is emptiness ultimately a way of saying that there is no reality?
It is good that you understand that I come from standard Mahayana, absolute and relative truth also come from that teaching.

/magnus
Yes, relative and ultimate truth are conventional Mahayana.

We were discussing ultimate reality.
Seriously, you want to have a discussion about the words reality and truth? I am not interested.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Where is Sakyamuni Buddha?

Post by DGA » Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:41 pm

heart wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:14 pm
DGA wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:07 pm

Yes, relative and ultimate truth are conventional Mahayana.

We were discussing ultimate reality.
Seriously, you want to have a discussion about the words reality and truth? I am not interested.

/magnus
That's OK. I think it's an important distinction, but not all of us agree.

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Re: Where is Sakyamuni Buddha?

Post by heart » Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:51 am

DGA wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:41 pm
heart wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:14 pm
DGA wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:07 pm

Yes, relative and ultimate truth are conventional Mahayana.

We were discussing ultimate reality.
Seriously, you want to have a discussion about the words reality and truth? I am not interested.

/magnus
That's OK. I think it's an important distinction, but not all of us agree.
Do you think relative truth is an reality, yes or no?

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

odysseus
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Re: Where is Sakyamuni Buddha?

Post by odysseus » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:40 am

DGA wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:41 pm

That's OK. I think it's an important distinction, but not all of us agree.
Are you sure that all of us don't agree?

Reality: something that is real = part of the one and only, singular reality
Truth: a fact one is unable to refute.

odysseus
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Re: Where is Sakyamuni Buddha?

Post by odysseus » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:42 am

heart wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:51 am
Do you think relative truth is an reality, yes or no?

/magnus
DGA is not me, but a relative truth is also something real = a part of the one and only, singular reality. :hi:

Simon E.
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Re: Where is Sakyamuni Buddha?

Post by Simon E. » Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:53 am

There is no 'one and only single reality'. That's Vedanta, not Buddhadharma.
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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Re: Where is Sakyamuni Buddha?

Post by DGA » Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:42 pm

heart wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:51 am

Do you think relative truth is an reality, yes or no?

/magnus
Hi Magnus,

No, relative truth is not a reality.

What reality does a truth have?

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Re: Where is Sakyamuni Buddha?

Post by heart » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:09 am

DGA wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:42 pm
heart wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:51 am

Do you think relative truth is an reality, yes or no?

/magnus
Hi Magnus,

No, relative truth is not a reality.

What reality does a truth have?
So, then the word "reality" really have no function at all for you?

No matter how nightmarish it seems the fact that Donald Trump is the president of the US is a reality. The word "reality" simply corresponds to the relative truth most of us agree on.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

DGA
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Re: Where is Sakyamuni Buddha?

Post by DGA » Mon Feb 05, 2018 3:15 pm

heart wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:09 am
DGA wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:42 pm

Hi Magnus,

No, relative truth is not a reality.

What reality does a truth have?
So, then the word "reality" really have no function at all for you?

No matter how nightmarish it seems the fact that Donald Trump is the president of the US is a reality. The word "reality" simply corresponds to the relative truth most of us agree on.

/magnus
Sure, we experience things in samsara and they seem to have a reality to them. My mom is dead. She had cancer of the esophagus. It was bad. That's samsara. Was her cancer a real thing? Ultimately no, it was empty, like all dharmas.

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Re: Where is Sakyamuni Buddha?

Post by heart » Mon Feb 05, 2018 3:20 pm

DGA wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 3:15 pm
heart wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:09 am
DGA wrote:
Sun Feb 04, 2018 11:42 pm

Hi Magnus,

No, relative truth is not a reality.

What reality does a truth have?
So, then the word "reality" really have no function at all for you?

No matter how nightmarish it seems the fact that Donald Trump is the president of the US is a reality. The word "reality" simply corresponds to the relative truth most of us agree on.

/magnus
Sure, we experience things in samsara and they seem to have a reality to them. My mom is dead. She had cancer of the esophagus. It was bad. That's samsara. Was her cancer a real thing? Ultimately no, it was empty, like all dharmas.
But relatively yes, it was a real thing. I don't think we are getting anywhere here. :smile:

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

DGA
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Re: Where is Sakyamuni Buddha?

Post by DGA » Mon Feb 05, 2018 3:39 pm

heart wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 3:20 pm
DGA wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 3:15 pm

Sure, we experience things in samsara and they seem to have a reality to them. My mom is dead. She had cancer of the esophagus. It was bad. That's samsara. Was her cancer a real thing? Ultimately no, it was empty, like all dharmas.
But relatively yes, it was a real thing. I don't think we are getting anywhere here. :smile:

/magnus
Hi Magnus,

I think you and I agree on principle but are using language differently and addressing different points.

I disagree with some interpretations of Madhyamaka that assert that some dharmas have a kind of reality to them (think of the discussions around a "valid cognition" in Gelugpa circles). I disagree with that perspective; I don't think there's a "relatively real" out there. That's one aspect of the discussion.

The point I was making at the start is that a truth is a dharma. Relative truth is, itself, a dharma. Therefore it is empty, not a reality. Truths are not realities.

I don't object to the use of the word "reality" as a kind of shorthand to talk about dharmas, and so I don't disagree with what you have to say about dharmas like Trump or my mom's cancer.

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