Santa La Muerte

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CedarTree
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Re: Santa La Muerte

Post by CedarTree » Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:14 pm

Motova wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:12 pm
CedarTree wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:01 pm
Motova wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:59 pm


I'm just looking out for a fellow Canadian.
You seemed to angry to be a Canadian my mistake ;)

Lol just jk, but was seriously wondering what the theme was about.
You are my next target.

Image
Lol oh dang.

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climb-up
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Re: Santa La Muerte

Post by climb-up » Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:21 pm

At the risk of encouraging Tenma (listen to the advice given earlier Tenma!)
Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:22 pm
Saint Death is the patron saint of drug lords and criminals.
That is true, but not the whole story.
She is the patron saint of the marginalized and disenfranchised. You only hear about the criminals because it sensational. There are many good people who work with her and consider her their patron.
The Roman Church disapproves of her folk veneration, because she is not a person who has ever existed, therefore she cannot be a saint, a glorified person.
You make two points here, second one first:
Plenty of Catholic saints never existed physically. Heres one persons list of some of them:
https://listverse.com/2014/05/17/10-bel ... ographies/
(I don't know he specifics in re: this particular list, but the point stay regardless.

In re: the second point. Of course the Catholic Church hierarchy disapproves of folk veneration, but that is about power and controlling the narrative not about the reality of spirits. The Catholic Church, militant, penitent and expectant is not limited to the hierarchy. Here's a great quote I recently saw in regards to the "folk" of folk Catholicism:
Mallorie Vaudoise wrote: The “folk” in “folk Catholicism” does not mean “simple” or “quaint”. It means “reflecting a group consensus which is not legitimated by the ecclesiastical authority”. This group consensus is rooted in seeing things as they are: haunted, ecstatic, erotic, and much older than 2,000 years.
At best she is a fairy IMO. But the Roman Church does not believe in those either.
You are, obviously, welcome to your opinions, but many many people for whom she has intervened would disagree that she is a fairytale.
Many many people would also disagree that the Roman church does not believe in fairy tales too!

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CedarTree
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Re: Santa La Muerte

Post by CedarTree » Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:28 pm

climb-up wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:21 pm
At the risk of encouraging Tenma (listen to the advice given earlier Tenma!)
Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:22 pm
Saint Death is the patron saint of drug lords and criminals.
That is true, but not the whole story.
She is the patron saint of the marginalized and disenfranchised. You only hear about the criminals because it sensational. There are many good people who work with her and consider her their patron.
The Roman Church disapproves of her folk veneration, because she is not a person who has ever existed, therefore she cannot be a saint, a glorified person.
You make two points here, second one first:
Plenty of Catholic saints never existed physically. Heres one persons list of some of them:
https://listverse.com/2014/05/17/10-bel ... ographies/
(I don't know he specifics in re: this particular list, but the point stay regardless.

In re: the second point. Of course the Catholic Church hierarchy disapproves of folk veneration, but that is about power and controlling the narrative not about the reality of spirits. The Catholic Church, militant, penitent and expectant is not limited to the hierarchy. Here's a great quote I recently saw in regards to the "folk" of folk Catholicism:
Mallorie Vaudoise wrote: The “folk” in “folk Catholicism” does not mean “simple” or “quaint”. It means “reflecting a group consensus which is not legitimated by the ecclesiastical authority”. This group consensus is rooted in seeing things as they are: haunted, ecstatic, erotic, and much older than 2,000 years.

At best she is a fairy IMO. But the Roman Church does not believe in those either.
You are, obviously, welcome to your opinions, but many many people for whom she has intervened would disagree that she is a fairytale.
Many many people would also disagree that the Roman church does not believe in fairy tales too!

The bold was insanely good!

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Santa La Muerte

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:37 pm

climb-up wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:21 pm
At the risk of encouraging Tenma (listen to the advice given earlier Tenma!)
Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:22 pm
Saint Death is the patron saint of drug lords and criminals.
That is true, but not the whole story.
She is the patron saint of the marginalized and disenfranchised. You only hear about the criminals because it sensational. There are many good people who work with her and consider her their patron.
The Roman Church disapproves of her folk veneration, because she is not a person who has ever existed, therefore she cannot be a saint, a glorified person.
You make two points here, second one first:
Plenty of Catholic saints never existed physically. Heres one persons list of some of them:
https://listverse.com/2014/05/17/10-bel ... ographies/
(I don't know he specifics in re: this particular list, but the point stay regardless.
The position of the Roman Church, regardless of the position of historians, is that all of its saints have existed, were people, and were Christians. Even Saint Josaphat. Who is better known as the ascetic Gautama.
climb-up wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:21 pm
In re: the second point. Of course the Catholic Church hierarchy disapproves of folk veneration, but that is about power and controlling the narrative not about the reality of spirits. The Catholic Church, militant, penitent and expectant is not limited to the hierarchy. Here's a great quote I recently saw in regards to the "folk" of folk Catholicism:
Mallorie Vaudoise wrote: The “folk” in “folk Catholicism” does not mean “simple” or “quaint”. It means “reflecting a group consensus which is not legitimated by the ecclesiastical authority”. This group consensus is rooted in seeing things as they are: haunted, ecstatic, erotic, and much older than 2,000 years.
At best she is a fairy IMO. But the Roman Church does not believe in those either.
You are, obviously, welcome to your opinions, but many many people for whom she has intervened would disagree that she is a fairytale.
Many many people would also disagree that the Roman church does not believe in fairy tales too!
I did not say fairytale. I said fairy. If she exists at all, of course. Of course, that is IMO.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmāḥ. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmāḥ. The conventional truth establishes all dharmāḥ.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

climb-up
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Re: Santa La Muerte

Post by climb-up » Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:51 pm

Coëmgenu wrote: I did not say fairytale. I said fairy. If she exists at all, of course. Of course, that is IMO.
Oh! My apologies for that last part.
Don't know much about the fairies, but they're great and can be quite powerful.
Who know, maybe she's a fairy.
I just take her as a powerful saint, not officially recognized by the church (of which there are many).

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Santa La Muerte

Post by dzogchungpa » Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:12 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:43 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:35 pm
Male penises? Aren't they all male?
You should meet the people I hung out with in university....

They'd call you 'problematic' for saying that. Maybe there is a reason I don't hang out with them anymore.

I get called that a lot. :cry:
Taking the attitude that the phenomenal world is sacred is the first and last practice of all. - Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche

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CedarTree
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Re: Santa La Muerte

Post by CedarTree » Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:13 pm

We love you. :tongue:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:12 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:43 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:35 pm
Male penises? Aren't they all male?
You should meet the people I hung out with in university....

They'd call you 'problematic' for saying that. Maybe there is a reason I don't hang out with them anymore.

I get called that a lot. :cry:

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Fortyeightvows
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Re: Santa La Muerte

Post by Fortyeightvows » Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:24 pm

CedarTree wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:28 pm
The bold was insanely good!
+1

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Santa La Muerte

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:42 pm

climb-up wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:51 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: I did not say fairytale. I said fairy. If she exists at all, of course. Of course, that is IMO.
Oh! My apologies for that last part.
Don't know much about the fairies, but they're great and can be quite powerful.
Who know, maybe she's a fairy.
I just take her as a powerful saint, not officially recognized by the church (of which there are many).
I don't necessarily believe in fairies, but if I did, I would think that Saint Death is one. That's just like a fairy. Pretending to be a saint.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmāḥ. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmāḥ. The conventional truth establishes all dharmāḥ.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Santa La Muerte

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:43 pm

They have terrific senses of humour, according to my grandmother, who practically based her life around her belief in them.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmāḥ. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmāḥ. The conventional truth establishes all dharmāḥ.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Re: Santa La Muerte

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:46 pm

CedarTree wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:28 pm
The bold was insanely good!
But can one say the same thing about 'folk Buddhism' being the definitive Buddhism as one would say of 'folk' Catholicism being the definitive Catholicism as per the quote you responded to?

Is my boyfriend's Vietnamese hairdresser's Buddhism definitive? "Buddha would give us a second chance, what is why we are reborn?"
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmāḥ. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmāḥ. The conventional truth establishes all dharmāḥ.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Santa La Muerte

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:47 pm

Incidentally, the OP is incorrectly entitled. It should be "Santa Muerte", not "Santa La Muerte", which is not grammatical in Spanish.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmāḥ. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmāḥ. The conventional truth establishes all dharmāḥ.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Santa La Muerte

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:09 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:47 pm
Incidentally, the OP is incorrectly entitled. It should be "Santa Muerte", not "Santa La Muerte", which is not grammatical in Spanish.

It's true that it should be "Santa Muerte" but I'm not so sure that "Santa La Muerte" would not be acceptable in Spanish, since "San La Muerte" appears to be.
Taking the attitude that the phenomenal world is sacred is the first and last practice of all. - Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Santa La Muerte

Post by Coëmgenu » Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:13 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:09 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:47 pm
Incidentally, the OP is incorrectly entitled. It should be "Santa Muerte", not "Santa La Muerte", which is not grammatical in Spanish.

It's true that it should be "Santa Muerte" but I'm not so sure that "Santa La Muerte" would not be acceptable in Spanish, since "San La Muerte" appears to be.
Fair enough. It isn't Santa la Cristóbal or San la Cristóbal, though. I don't know why Saint Death gets special grammatical treatment in her paraguayan form.

Perhaps it's what all the young saints these days are doing.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmāḥ. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmāḥ. The conventional truth establishes all dharmāḥ.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

Tenma
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Re: Santa La Muerte

Post by Tenma » Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:22 am

Norwegian wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:59 pm
Tenma wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:35 pm
Fair enough then. Guess even her followers aren't to be trusted. Then how do I escape? Or is there no need as I did dharmapala practice?
You constantly ask questions here but you never accept the answers. And you keep thinking you're qualified to do dharmapala practice. You're not. You haven't received empowerment, transmission, and instruction of them. And again, you asked a question about Santa La Muerte and people gave answers, and then you ignored the answers anyways and went off to pray to her.

Why should anybody care answering your questions again and give you advice when it's clear you don't care what people say? Honest question. It seems like a waste of time. I mean, just curious really.
Actually, there was an update on that. I was given permission to Palden Lhamo a month ago by Lama Kunga through phone. As for Simhamukha, here's where I found it(though I followed Lama Zopa Rinpoche's advice on frontal deity visualization rather than being the deity):
http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-mas ... simhamukha
So you're telling me that the Lotsawa House isn't to be trusted either nor my own guru?

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Santa La Muerte

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:24 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:13 am
dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:09 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 11:47 pm
Incidentally, the OP is incorrectly entitled. It should be "Santa Muerte", not "Santa La Muerte", which is not grammatical in Spanish.

It's true that it should be "Santa Muerte" but I'm not so sure that "Santa La Muerte" would not be acceptable in Spanish, since "San La Muerte" appears to be.
Fair enough. It isn't Santa la Cristóbal or San la Cristóbal, though. I don't know why Saint Death gets special grammatical treatment in her paraguayan form.

Perhaps it's what all the young saints these days are doing.

Well, I think it actually makes sense. Where we say "death" to refer to the general phenomenon of dying etc. the Spanish say "la muerte", not just "muerte".
Taking the attitude that the phenomenal world is sacred is the first and last practice of all. - Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Santa La Muerte

Post by Coëmgenu » Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:29 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:24 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:13 am
dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:09 am



It's true that it should be "Santa Muerte" but I'm not so sure that "Santa La Muerte" would not be acceptable in Spanish, since "San La Muerte" appears to be.
Fair enough. It isn't Santa la Cristóbal or San la Cristóbal, though. I don't know why Saint Death gets special grammatical treatment in her paraguayan form.

Perhaps it's what all the young saints these days are doing.

Well, I think it actually makes sense. Where we say "death" to refer to the general phenomenon of dying etc. the Spanish say "la muerte", not just "muerte".
But, traditionally, in all the rest of the saints, the name following their title is their name. Hence Santa Muerte. She is death.

It just makes the thing all the more sketchy. Like they couldn't even name her properly.

Its like if I said to you "You need to see the Doctor Dr. Briggs."
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmāḥ. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmāḥ. The conventional truth establishes all dharmāḥ.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Santa La Muerte

Post by Coëmgenu » Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:31 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:29 am
dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:24 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:13 am


Fair enough. It isn't Santa la Cristóbal or San la Cristóbal, though. I don't know why Saint Death gets special grammatical treatment in her paraguayan form.

Perhaps it's what all the young saints these days are doing.

Well, I think it actually makes sense. Where we say "death" to refer to the general phenomenon of dying etc. the Spanish say "la muerte", not just "muerte".
But, traditionally, in all the rest of the saints, the name following their title is their name. Hence Santa Muerte. She is death.

It just makes the thing all the more sketchy. Like they couldn't even name her properly.

Its like if I said to you "You need to see the Dr. Doctor Briggs."
Or if I referred to Bodhisattva Avalokiteśvara Bodhisattva.
並畢竟空。並如來藏。並實相。非三 而三三而不三。非合非散而合而散。非非合非非散。不可一異而一異。
All three truths are ultimately empty, all are tathāgatagarbha, all are true aspect. Not three, they are three; three, they are not three. Neither combined nor separated, neither uncombined nor unseparated. Neither same nor different, yet in a sense same, and in a sense different.

夫三諦者。 天然之性徳也。 中諦者。 統一切法。 眞諦者。 泯一切法。 俗諦者。 立一切法。
The three truths. Heaven-sent natural characteristics. The middle truth unifies all dharmāḥ. The ultimate truth demolishes all dharmāḥ. The conventional truth establishes all dharmāḥ.

摩訶止観始終心要Móhēzhǐguān, Shǐzhōngxīnyào.

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Aryjna
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Re: Santa La Muerte

Post by Aryjna » Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:33 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:31 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:29 am
dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:24 am



Well, I think it actually makes sense. Where we say "death" to refer to the general phenomenon of dying etc. the Spanish say "la muerte", not just "muerte".
But, traditionally, in all the rest of the saints, the name following their title is their name. Hence Santa Muerte. She is death.

It just makes the thing all the more sketchy. Like they couldn't even name her properly.

Its like if I said to you "You need to see the Dr. Doctor Briggs."
Or if I referred to Bodhisattva Avalokiteśvara Bodhisattva.
Muerte is not a name, which is what makes the difference (if there is a difference, which is unclear from the posts so far).

Tenma
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Re: Santa La Muerte

Post by Tenma » Fri Dec 15, 2017 12:33 am

climb-up wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:35 pm
Tenma wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:24 pm
So the statue was erected and unfortunately, I ended up being tempted to pray to her.
Unfortunately you were tempted?
What does the even mean?
Are you an addict?
You made a choice, that's how it goes.
Before I did so, I took great caution and recited the Simhamukha mantra and Palden Lhamo mantra with visualised offerings and request to protect me, then began the prayer to Santa La Muerte. Rather than use the "In the Name of the Father.....", I used "By the Three Jewels, the Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha..."
That is very rude.
Despite her worldly history, and her classification according to a Buddhist worldview, Santisima Muerte is absolutely a spirit and is real (I'm mean, you know, as "real" as anyone else... ...you know what I mean!).
Her follows LOVE her and see her as a mother. They don't use deities from other religions to protect themselves from her.
She is also Catholic. If you can't use her prayers (and there is absolutely no reason why you should be able to, I'm just saying) then there is absolutely no reason for you to be attempting to work with her.
along with a pus and blood offering
Well, I guess that might be something.
It wouldn't be very Buddhist, but it might have gotten her attention if you took the time to learn traditional practices and...
(pimples can be of use for both,
Are you F!@#ing kidding me!!!!???
Seriously, ...that's a joke right?
WTHF!?
Are you seriously presenting the popping of your pimples as a respectful and meaningful sacrifice to a powerful spirit?
I just...
I mean...
OMFG ...."I can't even!"
As Vasana said previously, "Obsession with the supernatural is probably a stronger mara than any genuine encounter so bear that in mind long term."
Turns out to be VERY true.
Her followers here think it's a way to "honor the Aztec traditions" and their culture/ethnicity.
Also, according to one of them(I'll keep it anonymous as it doesn't like to reveal it's identity), pus is fine, but blood is more preferable if offering bodily parts, but better off regular foods, clothes, money, etc.
It's not like last time where I tried pis, poop, blood, and pus all together as an offering(without the semen, I'm not going that far) to the dharmapalas, remember?

Just an FYI, mind my ignorance. It's a constant thing that hasn't been tamed fully in spirituality, so don't get to attached and angry over it.
Anyhow, Merci Beaucoup!

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