The siddhi of winning wars

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Fortyeightvows
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Re: The siddhi of winning wars

Post by Fortyeightvows » Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:15 pm

What are zors?

Norwegian
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Re: The siddhi of winning wars

Post by Norwegian » Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:28 pm

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:15 pm
What are zors?
In short, a magic weapon of destruction.

Varis
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Re: The siddhi of winning wars

Post by Varis » Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:09 am

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 8:14 pm
Nevertheless, Tibetans threw a lot of zors at the Chinese, but bullets apparently are more effective than zors at killing enemies.
Considering you said in a previous post on the forum that all Tibetans in the past were initiated into Vajrayana in some way or another, it is safe to assume that Tibetan soldiers, temple guards, etc. of the past were serious practitioners of Vajrayana?

Were exceptions, arguments/excuses for war (outside of sectarian violence) ever made in Tibetan Buddhism like in Japanese Buddhism?

WeiHan
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Re: The siddhi of winning wars

Post by WeiHan » Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:32 am

Norwegian wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:28 pm
Fortyeightvows wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:15 pm
What are zors?
In short, a magic weapon of destruction.
But all that are not proven and may well all just been folks stories, all these bullet proof khampas warriors that have been blessed by this and that high lamas etc..

tingdzin
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Re: The siddhi of winning wars

Post by tingdzin » Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:53 am

Amoghavajra, one of the three traditional founders of Esoteric Buddhism in China, was supposed to have defeated armies invading China usinga Vaisravana practices. In Tibet, Sokdokpa turned back invading Mongol war parties with magical practices. All this is old news.

As for the Zen stick, it can be a great help to practice. Altogether a different thing.

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Grigoris
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Re: The siddhi of winning wars

Post by Grigoris » Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:30 am

WeiHan wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:32 am
Norwegian wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:28 pm
Fortyeightvows wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:15 pm
What are zors?
In short, a magic weapon of destruction.
But all that are not proven and may well all just been folks stories, all these bullet proof khampas warriors that have been blessed by this and that high lamas etc..
I think that ultimately when one wishes to judge the efficacy of these types of magic one must look at the effect on the mind.

A Tibetan soldier charges into battle wearing an amulet that he believes protects him from bullets. He gets shot and dies. The amulet quite clearly did not protect him from the bullets. But what was the motivation for protection from bullets? To be better able to conquer his enemy.

Well, the enemy killed him. So the enemy won. The enemy is the conqueror. BUT, in the meantime, a karmic debt has been accrued. And it is serious debt to. One that may take lifetimes to pay back. So who has conquered who? Who has come out the "winner" in the endless cycle of life and death?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

climb-up
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Re: The siddhi of winning wars

Post by climb-up » Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:41 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:30 am
WeiHan wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:32 am
Norwegian wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:28 pm

In short, a magic weapon of destruction.
But all that are not proven and may well all just been folks stories, all these bullet proof khampas warriors that have been blessed by this and that high lamas etc..
I think that ultimately when one wishes to judge the efficacy of these types of magic one must look at the effect on the mind.

A Tibetan soldier charges into battle wearing an amulet that he believes protects him from bullets. He gets shot and dies. The amulet quite clearly did not protect him from the bullets. But what was the motivation for protection from bullets? To be better able to conquer his enemy.

Well, the enemy killed him. So the enemy won. The enemy is the conqueror. BUT, in the meantime, a karmic debt has been accrued. And it is serious debt to. One that may take lifetimes to pay back. So who has conquered who? Who has come out the "winner" in the endless cycle of life and death?
Well...
...isn't that kind of hedging one's bets so there is no possibility of loosing?
"If I conquer then my amulet totally worked because I one, if I am conquered then I totally one because over countless future lives my enemy holds the stains of their karma."
Do you think that this is what the lamas throwing zors had in mind when they through them?
Who has come out the "winner" in the endless cycle of life and death?
Ultimately, of course, there are no winners; but, relatively speaking then if you compete and loose then you didn't win.
If you have a muay thai match and your opponent wins, do you explain to everyone why you really won and they really lost? (I hope not! ...there's always that guy in the gym.)
If mantras are real, and have real effects in worldly situations, then they don't need to be rationalized away if and when they don't always work. (in my humble opinion). "If it's real it can take the pressure." said... ...someone smart. I can't remember.
Last edited by climb-up on Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tenma
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Re: The siddhi of winning wars

Post by Tenma » Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:47 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:30 am
WeiHan wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:32 am
Norwegian wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:28 pm

In short, a magic weapon of destruction.
But all that are not proven and may well all just been folks stories, all these bullet proof khampas warriors that have been blessed by this and that high lamas etc..
I think that ultimately when one wishes to judge the efficacy of these types of magic one must look at the effect on the mind.

A Tibetan soldier charges into battle wearing an amulet that he believes protects him from bullets. He gets shot and dies. The amulet quite clearly did not protect him from the bullets. But what was the motivation for protection from bullets? To be better able to conquer his enemy.

Well, the enemy killed him. So the enemy won. The enemy is the conqueror. BUT, in the meantime, a karmic debt has been accrued. And it is serious debt to. One that may take lifetimes to pay back. So who has conquered who? Who has come out the "winner" in the endless cycle of life and death?
Sounds like the British invasion of Tibet. Except with the Nechung oracle failing to defend Tibet as he promised in his trance during the time.

climb-up
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Re: The siddhi of winning wars

Post by climb-up » Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:56 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:17 pm

A bodhisattva's ahimsa can and will include killing harmful sentient beings.
That was close to what I was going to say.

My understanding (and I'm sure that many will some citation to crucify me with! :spy: ) is that from a tantric perspective (or maybe anyone's perspective) it can ultimately be more compassionate to kill someone than to let them live. If someone is working to destroy the dharma, for example, or a Buddha or Bodhisattva, and cannot be dissuaded by any other means, then they are on a path that can only lead to rebirth in the lowest hells for countless aeons, and a tantrika can stop them before they continue accumulating negative karma (Like Marley's ghost-chain being shorter than Scrooges in the beginning of "A Christmas Carol" because he had died 5 years earlier).
I believe that it is breaking samaya not to destroy those enemies who have the 10 appropriate qualifications.

Obviously this would have to be based on, and performed fully with, true compassion and wisdom and seems like it would very much lead to the same kind of lame rationalizations that you see in all other religions. But that doesn't mean that there is nothing to it.

I think the Dalai Lama shares the story of two monks (who have taken a vow on non-violence) see a man about to cross a swift moving, dangerous river that would absolutely kill him.
They both shout to tell him to stop, but he doesn't listen.
One monk sits quietly and does nothing.
The other monk goes and punches the man, at the last moment, reaches the man and punches him (maybe a for a hollywood style knockout? I don't recall).
The man's life is saved.
Which monk was practicing ahimsa?
The monk who performed no violent action, or the monk who punched the man in the nose and saved his life?

...I think I may have missed a few details above, but the point remains clear.

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Grigoris
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Re: The siddhi of winning wars

Post by Grigoris » Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:09 pm

climb-up wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:41 pm
Well...
...isn't that kind of hedging one's bets so there is no possibility of loosing?
No. It is a just another way of assessing what "winning" means.
Do you think that this is what the lamas throwing zors had in mind when they through them?
I had no idea what they had in mind. They were Buddhists though, so...
If you have a muay thai match and your opponent wins, do you explain to everyone why you really won and they really lost? (I hope not! ...there's always that guy in the gym.)
Nope. Of course not. And we use magic in Muay Thai too. Sometimes the opponents magic is better, sometimes ours is better. Sometimes the opponent is better, sometimes we are better. Both. Neither. That's the way worldly dharma rolls! :)
If mantras are real, and have real effects in worldly situations, then they don't need to be rationalized away if and when they don't always work. (in my humble opinion). "If it's real it can take the pressure." said... ...someone smart. I can't remember.
Maybe you now need to define "real". Also: don't forget that sometimes no amount of mantra and prayer can overturn karma vipakka.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Tenma
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Re: The siddhi of winning wars

Post by Tenma » Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:12 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:09 pm
climb-up wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:41 pm
Well...
...isn't that kind of hedging one's bets so there is no possibility of loosing?
No. It is a just another way of assessing what "winning" means.
Do you think that this is what the lamas throwing zors had in mind when they through them?
I had no idea what they had in mind. They were Buddhists though, so...
If you have a muay thai match and your opponent wins, do you explain to everyone why you really won and they really lost? (I hope not! ...there's always that guy in the gym.)
Nope. Of course not. And we use magic in Muay Thai too. Sometimes the opponents magic is better, sometimes ours is better. Sometimes the opponent is better, sometimes we are better. Both. Neither. That's the way worldly dharma rolls! :)
If mantras are real, and have real effects in worldly situations, then they don't need to be rationalized away if and when they don't always work. (in my humble opinion). "If it's real it can take the pressure." said... ...someone smart. I can't remember.
Maybe you now need to define "real". Also: don't forget that sometimes no amount of mantra and prayer can overturn karma vipakka.
Not even Vajrasattva, "om Eho..." nor Simhamukha?

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Grigoris
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Re: The siddhi of winning wars

Post by Grigoris » Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:16 pm

Removing an obstacle can sometimes bring even more turmoil.

Imagine a river that has been dammed by a fallen tree and folliage and blocked up. When the tree and foliage finally give way...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

climb-up
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Re: The siddhi of winning wars

Post by climb-up » Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:17 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:09 pm
climb-up wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:41 pm
Well...
...isn't that kind of hedging one's bets so there is no possibility of loosing?
No. It is a just another way of assessing what "winning" means.
I think that is fait if that understanding and intention is there before hand.
On the other hand; if someone uses a mantra for worldly aims, with the intention of worldly success, then they either succeed or fail.

If you have a muay thai match and your opponent wins, do you explain to everyone why you really won and they really lost? (I hope not! ...there's always that guy in the gym.)
Nope. Of course not. And we use magic in Muay Thai too. Sometimes the opponents magic is better, sometimes ours is better. Sometimes the opponent is better, sometimes we are better. Both. Neither. That's the way worldly dharma rolls! :)

Exactly.
Those dances in the beginning are supposed to cancel out magic right?
If mantras are real, and have real effects in worldly situations, then they don't need to be rationalized away if and when they don't always work. (in my humble opinion). "If it's real it can take the pressure." said... ...someone smart. I can't remember.
Maybe you now need to define "real". Also: don't forget that sometimes no amount of mantra and prayer can overturn karma vipakka.
Yeah, even as I was typing "real" I was thinking that I should be using a different word. Especially on a Buddhist forum.

In re: not overturning karma vipakka;
yes, 100%. There are circumstances, and even if the mantras are rea... ...umm ...can be effective, they still might not work.
You could have the best head kick in the world, and it might really work and be an effective tool, but that doesn't mean you'll win every match.

climb-up
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Re: The siddhi of winning wars

Post by climb-up » Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:22 pm

Tenma wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:12 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:09 pm
Also: don't forget that sometimes no amount of mantra and prayer can overturn karma vipakka.
Not even Vajrasattva, "om Eho..." nor Simhamukha?
Nothing works all the time in relation to worldly goals. Thats why it's samsara, and the nature of karma and dukkha.
(caveat: ...I think. Folks will correct me, I'm sure, if I am wrong on that).

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Re: The siddhi of winning wars

Post by Grigoris » Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:26 pm

climb-up wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:17 pm
Exactly.
Those dances in the beginning are supposed to cancel out magic right?
Ram Muay. Yes, that is one of their functions. But we also use prayers and ceremonies. Heavily based in Hinduism, I might add. Plus protective amulets, armbands (prajeet) and headbands (mongkhon/mongkol).

When we reached the rank of Kru the trainer (Kru Pho) then conducted a blessing ceremony for us all, that lasted for an hour or so.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

climb-up
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Re: The siddhi of winning wars

Post by climb-up » Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:30 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:26 pm
climb-up wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:17 pm
Exactly.
Those dances in the beginning are supposed to cancel out magic right?
Ram Muay. Yes, that is one of their functions. But we also use prayers and ceremonies. Heavily based in Hinduism, I might add. Plus protective amulets, armbands (prajeet) and headbands (mongkhon/mongkol).

When we reached the rank of Kru the trainer (Kru Pho) then conducted a blessing ceremony for us all, that lasted for an hour or so.
Fascinating.
Are thai magical tattoos used by a lot of muay thai fighters (I assume they would be, but I don't think I've specifically heard)? If so, are they integrated into the tradition, or just an extra that people might find helpful?

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Grigoris
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Re: The siddhi of winning wars

Post by Grigoris » Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:34 pm

climb-up wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:30 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:26 pm
climb-up wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:17 pm
Exactly.
Those dances in the beginning are supposed to cancel out magic right?
Ram Muay. Yes, that is one of their functions. But we also use prayers and ceremonies. Heavily based in Hinduism, I might add. Plus protective amulets, armbands (prajeet) and headbands (mongkhon/mongkol).

When we reached the rank of Kru the trainer (Kru Pho) then conducted a blessing ceremony for us all, that lasted for an hour or so.
Fascinating.
Are thai magical tattoos used by a lot of muay thai fighters (I assume they would be, but I don't think I've specifically heard)? If so, are they integrated into the tradition, or just an extra that people might find helpful?
The yant tattoos. Yes, Nak Muay love those! There are also yant printed onto cloth, that you can roll and wear in amulets, attach to your clothes or weave into the prajeet and mongkol. Yant are not specific to Nak Muay.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

climb-up
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Re: The siddhi of winning wars

Post by climb-up » Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:40 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:34 pm
climb-up wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:30 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:26 pm
Ram Muay. Yes, that is one of their functions. But we also use prayers and ceremonies. Heavily based in Hinduism, I might add. Plus protective amulets, armbands (prajeet) and headbands (mongkhon/mongkol).

When we reached the rank of Kru the trainer (Kru Pho) then conducted a blessing ceremony for us all, that lasted for an hour or so.
Fascinating.
Are thai magical tattoos used by a lot of muay thai fighters (I assume they would be, but I don't think I've specifically heard)? If so, are they integrated into the tradition, or just an extra that people might find helpful?
The yant tattoos. Yes, Nak Muay love those! There are also yant printed onto cloth, that you can roll and wear in amulets, attach to your clothes or weave into the prajeet and mongkol. Yant are not specific to Nak Muay.
Nice!
I've heard a few podcasts on the yant tattoos and they seem really interesting. I haven't been involved in martial arts since my middle child was born, but we had a little magic mixed up in out martial art (with more dangled in front of us for when we reached higher level), but nothing as explicit and integrated as you guys have (presumably because as a feudal japanese art mine was for history or self defense, whereas y'all actually regularly prepare to go to 'war' so-to-speak)

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Javierfv1212
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Re: The siddhi of winning wars

Post by Javierfv1212 » Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:16 pm

Also the Mongolians used Mahakala as their army's protector deity during some of their wars with China.
It is quite impossible to find the Buddha anywhere other than in one's own mind.
~Padmasambhava

Amid those who are self-constrained, the Stable One would not posit as categorically true or false
anything seen, heard, or sensed, clung to and considered truth by others.
Since they have already seen this dart to which people cling and adhere,
saying “I know, I see, it is just so,”
the Tathāgatas cling to nothing.
-Kalaka sutta

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Re: The siddhi of winning wars

Post by Crazywisdom » Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:23 pm

I think the Drikung view is the tantras give these abilities but not the authority to use them.
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