Question on Kalachakra prophecy

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cck123
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Question on Kalachakra prophecy

Post by cck123 » Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:46 pm

Hi friends,

regarding the kalachakra tantra:
what is the role of all the other religions and gods, esp. christians and jews, in the battle against the mlecchas? Do you find them among one of the two sides, or are all people areligious and the gods without might? Are they destroyed or converted by the mlecchas?

Good wishes for new year 2018!
Chris

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kirtu
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Re: Question on Kalachakra prophecy

Post by kirtu » Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:07 pm

cck123 wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:46 pm
Hi friends,

regarding the kalachakra tantra:
what is the role of all the other religions and gods, esp. christians and jews, in the battle against the mlecchas? Do you find them among one of the two sides, or are all people areligious and the gods without might? Are they destroyed or converted by the mlecchas?
Having not read the relevant passage in the tantra I can only draw an inference based on what my teachers have said and what I have read.

The mlecchas have taken over the entire world and are the overwhelmingly dominant power. Then they are apparently surprised to learn that there is a place not under their control, and they go to war.

However this doesn't address the question of other religions. They may be tollerated afterall (however a planet ruled by an ISIS-like power wouldn't have that option). So we don't really know.

Kirt
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Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

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Grigoris
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Re: Question on Kalachakra prophecy

Post by Grigoris » Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:14 pm

Under the Ottoman Empire Greek Orthodox Christianity thrived. Islam does not have a problem with other Abrahamic religions, it is the rest which have a hard time.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Malcolm
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Re: Question on Kalachakra prophecy

Post by Malcolm » Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:25 pm

cck123 wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:46 pm
Hi friends,

regarding the kalachakra tantra:
what is the role of all the other religions and gods, esp. christians and jews, in the battle against the mlecchas? Do you find them among one of the two sides, or are all people areligious and the gods without might? Are they destroyed or converted by the mlecchas?

Good wishes for new year 2018!
Chris
Kālacakra treats all Abrahamic religions as the same, that is, pernicious.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Nicholas Weeks
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Re: Question on Kalachakra prophecy

Post by Nicholas Weeks » Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:47 pm

Have not read this article of Newman's in a long time, so maybe a direct answer is not there. But still a good survey of the prophecy:

http://www.webcitation.org/query?url=ht ... 2012-09-08
There is a deity within us who breathes that divine fire by which we are animated. -- Ovid

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cyril
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Re: Question on Kalachakra prophecy

Post by cyril » Sun Dec 31, 2017 8:49 pm

cck123 wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:46 pm
Hi friends,

regarding the kalachakra tantra:
what is the role of all the other religions and gods, esp. christians and jews, in the battle against the mlecchas? Do you find them among one of the two sides, or are all people areligious and the gods without might? Are they destroyed or converted by the mlecchas?

Good wishes for new year 2018!
Chris
As a dhimmi, your choices are pretty limited when it comes to which side to join....
"You have to make the good out of the bad because that is all you have got to make it out of."
- Robert Penn Warren -

crazy-man
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Re: Question on Kalachakra prophecy

Post by crazy-man » Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:00 am

Verse I.154 from The Abridged Kalachakra Tantra (Tib. bsDus-rgyud, Skt. Laghu Kalacakra Tantra) reads:
Adam, Noah, Abraham, and five others – Moses, Jesus, the White-Clad One, Muhammad, and Mahdi – with tamas, are in the asura-naga caste. The eighth will be the blinded one. The seventh will manifestly come to the city of Baghdad in the land of Mecca, (the place) in this world where a portion of the asura (caste) will have the form of the powerful, merciless mlecchas.
According to A Commentary on Difficult Points Called “Padmani” (Tib. Padma-can zhes-bya-bai dka’-‘grel, Skt. Padmani-nama-panjika):
If you ask who propagated the Dharma of the mlecchas, it says, "Adam, Noah, and Abraham of the asura (caste) and, from the naga caste, the five others with tamas: Moses, this one, and The White-Clad One, Muhammad, and The Emanation. That eighth one will be the blinded one. The seventh will manifestly come to the cities of Baghdad and so on in the land of Mecca." Those with these names of non-Buddhists, and so on, will propagate the Dharma of the asuras. Among these, the one called "The White-Clad One" is Mahamayin. That one will propagate the Dharma of the asuras and so on in the cities of the land of Mecca and so on. If you ask what kind of land is that, it says, "(It is the place) in this world where the asura caste will have the form of the powerful, merciless mlecchas."
This verse and its Indian commentary have many difficult points. I cannot pretend to be able to resolve the problems in them. Here, I shall merely present the cultural and historical contexts and offer some arguments for and against the varied interpretations that can be made concerning debatable points.
Historical Analysis
The Term for the Non-Indic Invaders
The Sanskrit term mleccha (Tib. kla-klo), most frequently translated as “barbarians,” originally meant those who spoke indistinctly in a non-Sanskrit language. Specifically, the term referred to non-Sanskrit speaking groups that invaded and then ruled northwestern India, starting around a millennium after the Aryan invasion that initially established the Sanskrit-related languages there.
Before its appearance in the Kalachakra texts, “mleccha” was used in early Hindu literature to refer to the Macedonian Greek invaders, led by Alexander the Great in the third century BCE. Hindu literature also applied the term to subsequent foreign invaders, such as the Shakas, Kushans, and White Huns (Hephthalites).
An early appearance of the term in Buddhist literature prior to Kalachakra is in Nagarjuna’s Friendly Letter (Tib. bShes-pa’i spring-yig, Skt. Suhrllekha), written, in the second century of the common era, to King Udayana, a Shatavahana ruler of Andhra, South India. One of the four defective human rebirths with no chance to study or practice the Dharma is among the mleccha in a region beyond the four mountain ranges surrounding central India.
In Buddhism, then, the main connotation of the term is a non-Indic people, among whom there is no chance to study and practice Buddhism. The Hindu usage adds that such people will be invaders of northwestern India.
Although the Sanskrit term undeniably has these derogatory connotations, the more neutral translation non-Indic-speaking invaders, shortened to non-Indic invaders, is less confrontational than “barbarians.”
The List of Prophets
Some Western scholars translate the list of the invaders’ prophets as “Adam, Enoch, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, the White-Clad One, Muhammad, and Mathani.” A rendering of the list as “Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mani, Muhammad, and Mahdi” seems to make more sense.
Both Enoch and Noah appear in the list of twenty-five prophets mentioned in The Quran. Enoch was the inventor of writing and taught sciences such as astrology. Moreover, among The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha, The First Book of Enoch is one of the earliest sources of the prediction of an apocalypse. An argument for choosing Enoch as the reference is that Kalachakra also predicts an apocalyptic battle and that the invaders against whom it will be waged will be knowledgeable of astronomy and astrology.
The Arabic name for Enoch, however, is “Idris,” while the Arabic for Noah is “Nuh” (pronounced “Nuch”). When the Arabic demonstrative particle “al,” normally prefixed to proper names, is added to the latter, forming “an-Nuh,” it closely resembles “Anogha,” the Sanskrit transliteration of the name of this prophet. Therefore, it makes more sense linguistically that the second prophet in the Kalachakra list is Noah.
“Isha” (Tib. dBang-po), “The Powerful Lord,” is the Sanskrit phonetic transcription of “Issa,” the Arabic form of Jesus. Interestingly, “Isha,” in Sanskrit, is also a shortened form of “Ishvara,” an alternative name for Shiva, one of the main Hindu gods.
“Shvetavastri” (Tib. Gos-gar-can), “The White-Clad One,” is the Sanskrit translation of a common name for Mani, the third-century CE founder of the Manichaean religion, followed in Iraq, Iran, and Central Asia. The argument that since the Kalachakra description of the invaders’ beliefs and practices does not include any elements of Manichaeism is insufficient to disprove that the White-Clad One refers to Mani. Mani could be present in the list for historical reasons that will be explored below.
“Madhumati” (Tib. sBrang-rtsi'i blo-gros), “The Honey-minded One,” is the Sanskrit phonetic transcription of Muhammad. It also appears in Hindu literature, such as the Pratisarga Parvana section of The Bhavishya Purana, which mentions Madhumati (Muhammad) as a mleccha teacher.
“Mathani” (Tib. ‘Joms-byed), “The Destroyer,” is the Sanskrit phonetic transcription of Mahdi, the Islamic messiah. The choice of Sanskrit names probably also has a second significance.
The earliest source of Kalachakra teachings is A Concert of Names of Manjushri (Tib. ‘Jam-dpal mtshan-brjod, Skt. Manjushri-nama-samgiti), in which Manjushri, the embodiment of the deep awareness (Tib. ye-shes, Skt. jnana, wisdom) of all the Buddhas, is identified with the Kalachakra Buddha-figure. It can be dated no later than the mid-eighth century CE, since its first Sanskrit commentary, by Manjushrimitra, and its first Tibetan translation both date near the end of that century.
The text praises Manjushri as “the upholder of the line of Buddha’s emanations, he who radiates various emanations to benefit beings accordingly.” Among the emanations then listed is Pramatha (Tib. ‘Joms-byed), “The Destroyer.” As the Tibetan translation attests, “Pramatha” and “Mathani” come from the same Sanskrit root math, “to destroy.” “Pramatha” is the Sanskrit name of the leader of the asuras, the jealous “anti-gods.” The association of the invaders and their teachings with asuras, specified in the verse from The Abridged Kalachakra Tantra, will be discussed below.
Another name for Pramatha is “Vemacitra” (“Bright Loom”), for which the possible variant “Vimacitta” (“The Destruction-minded One”) seems more significant. In the Kalachakra prediction, Krinmati, the King of Delhi, will declare himself Mahdi. “Krinmati” in Sanskrit also means “The Destruction-minded One.”
https://studybuddhism.com/en/advanced-s ... kalachakra

more Info:
https://studybuddhism.com/en/advanced-s ... e-invasion
https://studybuddhism.com/en/advanced-s ... armageddon
https://studybuddhism.com/en/advanced-s ... kalachakra
http://kalachakranet.org/kalachakra_tantra_history.html
https://palisuttas.wordpress.com/2012/0 ... t-century/
http://balkhandshambhala.blogspot.de/20 ... phets.html
http://www.adishakti.org/_/critical_for ... a_myth.htm

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liuzg150181
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Re: Question on Kalachakra prophecy

Post by liuzg150181 » Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:27 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:25 pm
cck123 wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:46 pm
Hi friends,

regarding the kalachakra tantra:
what is the role of all the other religions and gods, esp. christians and jews, in the battle against the mlecchas? Do you find them among one of the two sides, or are all people areligious and the gods without might? Are they destroyed or converted by the mlecchas?

Good wishes for new year 2018!
Chris
Kālacakra treats all Abrahamic religions as the same, that is, pernicious.
Why pernicious,due to eternalist view of an eternal creator God?

PeterC
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Re: Question on Kalachakra prophecy

Post by PeterC » Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:57 am

Very interesting. So that section could be read as describing aggression by Abrahamic religions in general - ie including Christian armies, not just Islam? That would make it a lot more plausible...

(Have not received the empowerment and lung and therefore can’t read the tantra itself)

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Harimoo
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Re: Question on Kalachakra prophecy

Post by Harimoo » Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:47 am

In every Religion/Tradition there is a big war in the end of the cycle, a fight of good vs evl : armageddon, ragnarok, with the return of Kalki/Jesus+Mahdi Messiah etc.

For centuries in the islamic world, the bad guys were the turks. Muslim scholars wrote tons of books about them. And then, most of the turks became muslims so... :shrug:
Now, it seems that the bad guys are the chinese

Soma999
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Re: Question on Kalachakra prophecy

Post by Soma999 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:20 pm

The bad guy is our own egocentrism. When we don't recognise it, when we don't recognise our own shadow, we will project it on someone, or a religion, or a group of people, and we (the good guy) will fight "them" (the bad guy).

We know the results and all the suffering it creates. We just have to look history.

It's always the same. The evil is the neighbour. The neighbour also is wrong. And the neighbour is also full of faults. And we are so right.

The problem is that the neighbour think exactly the same. And all those projection of shadow create suffering, wars...

I understand we want to remove terrorists. And i think it will be much easier when we will tame our mind and supress our own terroristic mind.

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Re: Question on Kalachakra prophecy

Post by DGA » Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:43 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:25 pm
cck123 wrote:
Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:46 pm
Hi friends,

regarding the kalachakra tantra:
what is the role of all the other religions and gods, esp. christians and jews, in the battle against the mlecchas? Do you find them among one of the two sides, or are all people areligious and the gods without might? Are they destroyed or converted by the mlecchas?

Good wishes for new year 2018!
Chris
Kālacakra treats all Abrahamic religions as the same, that is, pernicious.
for the purpose of this discussion, who isn't a mleccha?

Sādhaka
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Re: Question on Kalachakra prophecy

Post by Sādhaka » Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:48 am

It seems that mlecchas would include abrahamists and materialist-annihilationists.

Non-Buddhist 'pagans' are still outsiders, but not necessarily mlecchas.
“...we should try to acquire clairvoyance. Without it, we are like a baby bird whose wings are undeveloped and has not yet grown feathers and remains stuck in its nest, unable to fly. Without clairvoyance, we cannot work for other sentient beings.” — Khunu Lama
“Just as a bird can not fly without both wings,
The welfare of others cannot be accomplished without the higher faculties of perception,
So diligently strive for your own wellbeing, whilst mentally considering the welfare of others.” — Longchenpa

DGA
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Re: Question on Kalachakra prophecy

Post by DGA » Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:55 am

Sādhaka wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:48 am
It seems that mlecchas would include abrahamists and materialist-annihilationists.

Non-Buddhist 'pagans' are still outsiders, but not necessarily mlecchas.
I'm dense and I'm not following your reply. Maybe I should put the question differently.

Is the category "mleccha" the same as or different from the category "tirthika" for the purpose of this discussion?

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Re: Question on Kalachakra prophecy

Post by Aryjna » Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:02 am


Sādhaka
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Re: Question on Kalachakra prophecy

Post by Sādhaka » Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:07 am

DGA wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:55 am
Sādhaka wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:48 am
It seems that mlecchas would include abrahamists and materialist-annihilationists.

Non-Buddhist 'pagans' are still outsiders, but not necessarily mlecchas.
I'm dense and I'm not following your reply. Maybe I should put the question differently.

Is the category "mleccha" the same as or different from the category "tirthika" for the purpose of this discussion?

From what I understand non-abrahamist Indian Tirthikas are not considered mlecchas.

Perhaps Indian Tirthikas are the only non-Buddhists who are not considered mlecchas. I'm not quite sure.

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Harimoo
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Re: Question on Kalachakra prophecy

Post by Harimoo » Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:34 pm

In Kalacakra tantra, mleccas refers to muslims.

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Re: Question on Kalachakra prophecy

Post by DGA » Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:20 pm

Harimoo wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:34 pm
In Kalacakra tantra, mleccas refers to muslims.
Yes. What is not clear to me is if the term mleccha refers to Muslims only, or also to others.

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Malcolm
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Re: Question on Kalachakra prophecy

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:27 pm

DGA wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:20 pm
Harimoo wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:34 pm
In Kalacakra tantra, mleccas refers to muslims.
Yes. What is not clear to me is if the term mleccha refers to Muslims only, or also to others.
Generally, it refers to anyone speaking an unclear (to subcontinental Indians) language. In the context of the Kālacakra, muslims.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Nemo
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Re: Question on Kalachakra prophecy

Post by Nemo » Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:33 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:27 pm
DGA wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 7:20 pm
Harimoo wrote:
Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:34 pm
In Kalacakra tantra, mleccas refers to muslims.
Yes. What is not clear to me is if the term mleccha refers to Muslims only, or also to others.
Generally, it refers to anyone speaking an unclear (to subcontinental Indians) language. In the context of the Kālacakra, muslims.
It seems the most dangerous thing to life on earth currently is capitalism, not Muslims. I remember Guru Rinpoche talking about both the Mohamedians AND those in the thrall of materialism. It's the capitalists destroying the atmosphere, making nuclear weapons, starting resource wars, etc ,etc, If you include both they have already conquered the entire world.

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