The Real "Dark Age"

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Malcolm
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Re: The Real "Dark Age"

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:23 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:07 pm

So in this case, for example, one does not find fault in what is being said, since what is being said is essentially faultless, so one turns to character assassination instead. So once you convince the reader of the passage, that the person that wrote the passage has a faulty character, what does that mean? That the passage is incorrect? Sounds like an ad hom logic fallacy to me.
Anyone can parrot a commentary.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Grigoris
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Re: The Real "Dark Age"

Post by Grigoris » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:38 pm

Yes, well, both of those were pretty weak replies, I must say.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: The Real "Dark Age"

Post by Punya » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:53 pm

TaTa wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:32 pm
So now every thread abouT DKR is going to be a DKR bashing thread?
Looks like it. Of course, in relation to specific posters there is always the ignore button.
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
~Chatral Rinpoche

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Malcolm
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Re: The Real "Dark Age"

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:55 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:38 pm
Yes, well, both of those were pretty weak replies, I must say.
"Disparaging a guru" means that someone who is a student of that guru criticizes them to the effect that they have broken their vows, engaged in nonvirtue, are not qualified to be teachers and so on.

The only way such false gurus can be held to account is if they are disparaged, i.e., shown to be worthless as spiritual guides.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: The Real "Dark Age"

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:00 pm

Punya wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:53 pm
TaTa wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:32 pm
So now every thread abouT DKR is going to be a DKR bashing thread?
Looks like it. Of course, in relation to specific posters there is always the ignore button.
I thought the thread was about dark ages. Indeed, fake gurus are a theme of dark age predictions:

"Charlatans destroying the teachings arise like streams in summer."

-- Replies to Nyanban.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Fa Dao
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Re: The Real "Dark Age"

Post by Fa Dao » Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:58 pm

:twothumbsup:
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:07 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:43 pm
Some gurus should be disparaged, even by their own students.
I disagree. I think they should be held to account. I believe that people should be informed about their actions. But just belittling teachers, I don't think that benefits anybody. I imagine if one checks the motivation behind these sort of statements, it would just be aversion, and that certainly does nothing to help the commentator.

So in this case, for example, one does not find fault in what is being said, since what is being said is essentially faultless, so one turns to character assassination instead. So once you convince the reader of the passage, that the person that wrote the passage has a faulty character, what does that mean? That the passage is incorrect? Sounds like an ad hom logic fallacy to me.

Another example: One time (unbeknownst to me as I was ignorant at the time of who wrote the book) I brought and read a commentary on lojong by the teacher of the cult group following the gyalpo. The commentary was almost word for word identical to what I had been taught by a highly trained legitimate teacher in a recognised sect, with highly regarded and well known teachers. If, I was to have read the book based on my current aversion of the cult leader, I may have missed the fact that the commentary was actually really bloody good.

I feel the same thing is happening now.

Truth is that what is happening here is a clear case of meta-discussion anyway, and so will soon be going to the Dharma Wheel circular filing cabinet (ie trash can).
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

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Tiago Simões
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Re: The Real "Dark Age"

Post by Tiago Simões » Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:59 pm

For frak sake, next time I'll say it's a quote from Bob Marley...

TaTa
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Re: The Real "Dark Age"

Post by TaTa » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:15 pm

Punya wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:53 pm
TaTa wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:32 pm
So now every thread abouT DKR is going to be a DKR bashing thread?
Looks like it. Of course, in relation to specific posters there is always the ignore button.
Yes. To bad that on actually has to navigate through a shit amoung of post to actually follow the original post

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Fa Dao
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Re: The Real "Dark Age"

Post by Fa Dao » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:34 pm

I have been reading all of these various posts and how they are linking back to DKR and ultimately to Sogyal Rinpoche and the reason I haven't posted anything on them is simply because I have never met either one of them or their accusers...so I just figure its not my place, and that being the case anything I would say would be gossiping and doing the dogpiling on of virtue signaling...sometimes things are not as they appear, sometimes they are but dark ages or not talking shit about people you have never even met is just simply not cool...know what I mean?
"But if you know how to observe yourself, you will discover your real nature, the primordial state, the state of Guruyoga, and then all will become clear because you will have discovered everything"-Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche

marting
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Re: The Real "Dark Age"

Post by marting » Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:45 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:55 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:38 pm
Yes, well, both of those were pretty weak replies, I must say.
"Disparaging a guru" means that someone who is a student of that guru criticizes them to the effect that they have broken their vows, engaged in nonvirtue, are not qualified to be teachers and so on.

The only way such false gurus can be held to account is if they are disparaged, i.e., shown to be worthless as spiritual guides.
Worthless in all spiritual matters? :lol:

I hardly think so.

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heart
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Re: The Real "Dark Age"

Post by heart » Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:13 pm

Fa Dao wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:34 pm
I have been reading all of these various posts and how they are linking back to DKR and ultimately to Sogyal Rinpoche and the reason I haven't posted anything on them is simply because I have never met either one of them or their accusers...so I just figure its not my place, and that being the case anything I would say would be gossiping and doing the dogpiling on of virtue signaling...sometimes things are not as they appear, sometimes they are but dark ages or not talking shit about people you have never even met is just simply not cool...know what I mean?
yes.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: The Real "Dark Age"

Post by Punya » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:06 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:00 pm
Punya wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:53 pm
TaTa wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:32 pm
So now every thread abouT DKR is going to be a DKR bashing thread?
Looks like it. Of course, in relation to specific posters there is always the ignore button.
I thought the thread was about dark ages. Indeed, fake gurus are a theme of dark age predictions:

"Charlatans destroying the teachings arise like streams in summer."

-- Replies to Nyanban.
I wasn't actually referring to you Malcolm (or Greg). IMO the views of serious practitioners should always be considered, even if we sometimes disagree with them. It would be nice if we could get off this topic though.

But really, are you now saying that DJKR is a charlatan?
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
~Chatral Rinpoche

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Malcolm
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Re: The Real "Dark Age"

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:50 pm

Punya wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:06 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:00 pm
Punya wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:53 pm


Looks like it. Of course, in relation to specific posters there is always the ignore button.
I thought the thread was about dark ages. Indeed, fake gurus are a theme of dark age predictions:

"Charlatans destroying the teachings arise like streams in summer."

-- Replies to Nyanban.
I wasn't actually referring to you Malcolm (or Greg). IMO the views of serious practitioners should always be considered, even if we sometimes disagree with them. It would be nice if we could get off this topic though.

But really, are you now saying that DJKR is a charlatan?
I never even implied it.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Punya
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Re: The Real "Dark Age"

Post by Punya » Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:20 am

Ok. Thank you for clarifying.
We abide nowhere. We possess nothing.
~Chatral Rinpoche

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Re: The Real "Dark Age"

Post by DGA » Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:28 am

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:00 pm
Punya wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:53 pm
TaTa wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:32 pm
So now every thread abouT DKR is going to be a DKR bashing thread?
Looks like it. Of course, in relation to specific posters there is always the ignore button.
I thought the thread was about dark ages. Indeed, fake gurus are a theme of dark age predictions:

"Charlatans destroying the teachings arise like streams in summer."

-- Replies to Nyanban.
To your mind, is the director of The Cup a fake guru? Is his conduct a symptom of a dark age?

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Malcolm
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Re: The Real "Dark Age"

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:35 am

DGA wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:28 am
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:00 pm
Punya wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:53 pm


Looks like it. Of course, in relation to specific posters there is always the ignore button.
I thought the thread was about dark ages. Indeed, fake gurus are a theme of dark age predictions:

"Charlatans destroying the teachings arise like streams in summer."

-- Replies to Nyanban.
To your mind, is the director of The Cup a fake guru? Is his conduct a symptom of a dark age?

I have already stated my opinion of DKR”s credentials. As far as I know, they are in order so far.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: The Real "Dark Age"

Post by Virgo » Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:07 am

Ok, this isn't a Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche topic specifically, of which we do have one (viewtopic.php?f=116&t=27174&hilit=DJKR). So let's get back on topic please.

Thank you.
:)

Kevin
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Sonam Wangchug
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Re: The Real "Dark Age"

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:35 am

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:38 pm
Josef wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:59 pm
The dark age is marked by tulkus mocking victims of sexual abuse on the internet.
And Vajrayana practitioners disparaging Gurus...
Indeed, The dark age is when practitioners become so self righteous that they assume their ability to judge other individuals trumps the Wisdom mind of our enlightened lineage holders.

Actually, it's really incredible how dualistic and judgmental people can be. Though most people revere lineage masters of the past, or even pray to them with devotion, it their emanations are among us today, or really if any genuine practitioner yogi/yogini is among us displaying not even a wisp of controversial conduct compared to what they did, they are written off, no matter who says otherwise (apparently)

It is more or less an attitude of extreme arrogance, perhaps due in part to things becoming very individualistic and people who are not really empowered lineage holders having large voices/audiences due to social media.

For example, the 16th Karmapa's wisdom was unobscured, though it's trendy and modern these days to dislike the tulku system, I think it's also completely off base to discount the enlightened perception of such masters.

He was able to locate tulku's easily, down to the name of their parents and their location. I know a few teachers who were his close students and i'm not saying it to sound marvelous, it's just that the Karmapa's enlightened qualities are obvious and known to all who knew him well.

For example when one of my teachers was escaping the Chinese they were shooting at him and the others with machine guns. He being someone who has undivided devotion in the Gyalwang Karmapa visualized the Karmapa on his back, protecting him like a cape. He was unharmed. Later when he met with the Karmapa in a distant region of tibet, the karmapa without ever hearing of this instance said to him, "Most people visualize their lama's on top of their head, but some visualize them on their back!" He said that was an event which caused a strong conviction in him that the Gyalwang karmapa's super-cognition is not bound by distance.

Or when he was requested to find the incarnation of the previous Sangye nyenpa rinpoche, he told them the area to look, and he provided them with the name of the father. After searching all day, they didn't find anyone who matched this name and returned to the Karmapa empty handed. When he had inquired if they had found him, they said they couldn't find anyone with that name, only a caretaker of Paro Taktsang named such and such, the karmapa told them "That's him, go back" When they went back they discovered the name was a name he had in his childhood which no one else knew about.

The point is that if we do not have actual devotion in these kind of lama's we are only doing ourselves a disservice, and in my opinion it certainly lacks humility. If anyone is able to replicate the supercognition of the Karmapa or others, I would certainly lend a listening ear, but it seems people who are the authorities on how tulkus should act and how they should manifest, do not, nor do they profess to.

There are many instances of Dakinis appearing as prostitutes, even as butchers. In more or less recent times there was a particular female butcher, and when people would eat the meat from her shop they would feel quite good. Well, a highly realized master happened to see her one day, and perceived her not in her ordinary form, but something more akin to Vajrayogini, he started to immediately prostrate to her, and she admonished him saying, now my work is ruined, people will know who I am now!

Or like in the case in which Lama Tharchin rinpoche mentioned, that when he was younger he could conceive that lama's could appear in various kind of forms, but he simply couldn't fit it into his mind that a tulku could appear as a butcher. However, his father was telling him about a lama who had manifested as both a conventional tibetan lama, and also as a butcher. When the lama was going to pass way, he told someone to send a message to the butcher, the butcher replied that he would join him, but he has another guest that he had to deal with first (an animal) after he liberated that animal, their minds merged and they passed away at the same time.

and yet, we are all so sure about how everyone else has to act, and somehow unconcerned with the way enlightened beings see things.

Since the OP quoted DKR I would like to mention a relevant story. After Jamyang khyentse chokyi lodro passed away, the 16th karmapa had a dream that a Sun had set, yet immediately three suns rose into the sky. Then one of the suns set, and then arose behind the other two. The implication was that there would be 3 incarnations of Jamyang khyentse chokyi lodro (Dzongsar jamyang khyentse rinpoche, Jigme khyentse rinpoche, and Khyentse yeshe rinpoche (Dzigar kongtrul rinpoche's brother) The dream was so specific because when Jigme khyentse rinpoche was an infant he passed away and was reborn to the same family right after that, and that is the reason why he is a little younger then the other two Khyentse's.

It just so happens when HHST recognized Dzongsar jamyang khyentse rinpoche that he also said there would be 3 emanations. So the point I am making is that it is actually quite wise to trust such eminent guides and their vision, and not to be so self righteous and act like we know better.

The last thing I would like to say is that, sometimes things can be quite ironic as well, it could even be that people point their fingers at a sublime being, while assuming their own valley is full of fragrant flowers, but it's not necessarily the case. I know of a multiple people, who have been very strong and confident in their sweeping judgement, but being someone who 'kind of' gets updated about insider events at various sangha's I can say with very strong confidence ( judging by who told me and the contexts ) that their own sangha's suffer from inappropriate sexual behavior, and also other unsavory happenings. These things are not known, and I have no real interest in disturbing other peoples faith or creating rifts in sangha's but I mention it to highlight a point.

Perhaps people should not be so quick to judge. Not everything that glitters is gold, and not everything dusty and dirty in appearance is devoid of priceless jewels.

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: The Real "Dark Age"

Post by PuerAzaelis » Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:47 am

What is my obligation to a lama who is not my teacher?
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Quay
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Re: The Real "Dark Age"

Post by Quay » Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:56 am

I love hearing stories about the 16th Karmapa and especially Lama Tharchin Rinpoche. I have no doubt of the former's activities and was fortunate to have known the latter and to have received teachings from him.

Nevertheless, it can be said that one of the symptoms of a Dark Age is that some practitioners cannot recognize even a moment's lightning flash of wisdom mind and instead get caught up in minor displays often put on by people who do not know wisdom mind. I refer to the common siddhis of clairvoyance, mind reading, predicting future events, and the like. Certainly such activities can be a result of wisdom mind manifesting for the good of sentient beings but they can also simply be the result of a charlatan's mind or even someone who has never seen a picture of a Buddha or read a single line of Sutra.

Accordingly for me, I have not been in a position where I felt the need to disparage anyone and really wonder if I would be able to should the need appear to arise. I would hope I would thoroughly examine my own mind and faults before taking a public position. It's definitely a subject I think has about a thousand angles or so and one that should be carefully considered before any action is taken.
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.

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