The Real "Dark Age"

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
User avatar
Tiago Simões
Posts: 915
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:41 pm
Location: Portugal

The Real "Dark Age"

Post by Tiago Simões » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:41 pm

Himachal Pradesh, India -- Some say the dark age, age of vice - Kaliyuga (last of the four stages the world goes through as part of the cycle of yugas described in the Indian scriptures), is here now, or at least coming soon. Some even fear that at the end of 2012 the world as we know it will end.

What determines if an age is dark or golden? What are the symptoms or omens? Earthquakes, violet skies, meteoric activity, these are not the omens of doomsday as we are made to believe.

Likewise, Cherub's flying, a sound economy, freedom of information, peaceful times are also not necessarily signs of a golden age. The age of light is said to be when people value empathy and forgiveness, when they have a willingness to see other people's view, and are contented with what they have.

When such values are systematically sabotaged, then you can say that the dawn of the doomsday has begun. When we look at a harmless beggar as a pest and envy billionaires who routinely destroy the earth, we are inviting doomsday to come.


Like Buddha taught, everything is dependant on cause and condition. Dark and golden ages are no exception. They are not predestined, nor are they random or chaotic.
Destiny is conditioned. Chief among the causes and conditions is one's own individual self. You can create your destiny. Your choices are your destiny. What and how we are now depends on what and how we have been in the past. What and how we will be in the future depends on what and how we are now.

Shakyamuni with his lotus feet may approach your doorstep for alms but if we keep on being obsessed with Patek Philipe watches, fame or friends, or six pack abs, then Buddha's truth is an annoyance, an inconvenient truth.

Even though we may be in midst of "Kaliyuga" and are subject to endless causes and conditions of the dark age - easily distracted and confined to thinking of our own self preservation, aspiring to reach benchmarks based on materialistic, consumerist values - we can take advantage of it.

It is said that during "degenerate times", the compassion of the Buddhas and bodhisattvas are ever stronger. A savvy spiritual person could take advantage of that opportunity. The dark age can be a reminder of the urgency and preciousness of the Buddha, Dharma, and Sangha.

As beings that are dependant on conditions, we need to search for light, and cultivate the conditions that brings light. We need constant reminding of the opposite of materialism. For that we need the image of the Buddha, the sound of the Dharma, and the structure of the Sangha.

In the past few years, we have lost some of the greatest appearances of the Buddha, such as Kyabje Trulshik Rinpoche, and Mindroling Trichen Rinpoche and Penor Rinpoche, who were all great reminders. But even though their appearance have dissolved, bear in mind that their compassion does not know the meaning of limitations.

In the spirit of where there is a demand, there is supply, we should have aspirations and longing for the appearance of the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas to never to cease, and- to put it in a trendy term - their swift rebirth.

But this rebirth should not be limited to a Tibetan child who has been raised in a particular culture or tradition. We can wish for Buddha's rebith in all forms, even as something seemingly insignificant as the breeze, to remind us of the values of love and compassion and tolerance.

We must aspire to galvanize myriad manifestations of the Buddha, not just throne-hopping, Rolls Royce-driving tulkus who are a product of nepotism.

-Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche, The Buddhist Channel, Jan 30, 2012

User avatar
Josef
Posts: 1921
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm
Contact:

Re: The Real "Dark Age"

Post by Josef » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:59 pm

The dark age is marked by tulkus mocking victims of sexual abuse on the internet.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

User avatar
javier.espinoza.t
Posts: 590
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:29 am

Re: The Real "Dark Age"

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:52 am

Josef wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:59 pm
The dark age is marked by tulkus mocking victims of sexual abuse on the internet.
True. Tulku means little to me...

User avatar
Josef
Posts: 1921
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm
Contact:

Re: The Real "Dark Age"

Post by Josef » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:01 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:52 am
Josef wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:59 pm
The dark age is marked by tulkus mocking victims of sexual abuse on the internet.
True. Tulku means little to me...
Same here. Especially when that individuals behavior doesnt correspond with who he or she is said to be a tulku of.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

Joseph
Posts: 52
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2018 11:07 am

Re: The Real "Dark Age"

Post by Joseph » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:59 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:52 am
Josef wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:59 pm
The dark age is marked by tulkus mocking victims of sexual abuse on the internet.
True. Tulku means little to me...
These events have woken me up from behind my tinted glasses !! :zzz: Had to happen at some point , was thinking anyone who could comprehend the conquerors truth would at least attempt to act in accordance! Degenerate age indeed

as ChNN says open your eyes!!

:namaste:

User avatar
Josef
Posts: 1921
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm
Contact:

Re: The Real "Dark Age"

Post by Josef » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:58 am

Joseph wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:59 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:52 am
Josef wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:59 pm
The dark age is marked by tulkus mocking victims of sexual abuse on the internet.
True. Tulku means little to me...
These events have woken me up from behind my tinted glasses !! :zzz: Had to happen at some point , was thinking anyone who could comprehend the conquerors truth would at least attempt to act in accordance! Degenerate age indeed

as ChNN says open your eyes!!

:namaste:
Well said.
It seems the precious bodhicitta has been neglected.
It’s about time we take responsibility for our liberation and take a serious look at what it truly means to practice dharma.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

User avatar
The Cicada
Posts: 756
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2016 5:15 am
Location: Trumpaloka

Re: The Real "Dark Age"

Post by The Cicada » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:18 am

The words you share are true, not false, Tiagolps. I agree that it is the case that, for this world, that "Time's Up."

dzoki
Posts: 477
Joined: Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:04 pm

Re: The Real "Dark Age"

Post by dzoki » Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:53 am

I think "metoo" movement is pretty dumb. Why is it dumb? It is dumb, becuase it lumps together women, who were real victims of rape with women who were victims of their own bad decisions. Who are the women who are victims of their own bad decissions? Women who willingly slept with their guru or other "sexual predator". Of course in case of guru it is clear how the power dynamic is tilted in the favor of "sexual predator guru" (or movie director, producer, etc.), but still those women have their own agency, do they not? I know of several women who slept with their guru for their own purpose - they wanted to become admired withtin their own sangha or they thought they will get some special blessings. So now because those women made a bad decission to sleep with their guru, boss etc. they are victims - but I would say that more than anything they are victims of lack of their own independent thingking. So while I understand and agree that there is an outrage about gurus who are sexual predators, I kind of don't get why is there no outrage about the stupidity of those women who knowingly and willingly sleep with their guru for whatever purpose. I guess it is because nowadays people like to be victims and other people like to outraged on the behalf of others.

Miroku
Posts: 471
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:18 am

Re: The Real "Dark Age"

Post by Miroku » Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:07 pm

dzoki wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:53 am
I think "metoo" movement is pretty dumb. Why is it dumb? It is dumb, becuase it lumps together women, who were real victims of rape with women who were victims of their own bad decisions. Who are the women who are victims of their own bad decissions? Women who willingly slept with their guru or other "sexual predator". Of course in case of guru it is clear how the power dynamic is tilted in the favor of "sexual predator guru" (or movie director, producer, etc.), but still those women have their own agency, do they not? I know of several women who slept with their guru for their own purpose - they wanted to become admired withtin their own sangha or they thought they will get some special blessings. So now because those women made a bad decission to sleep with their guru, boss etc. they are victims - but I would say that more than anything they are victims of lack of their own independent thingking. So while I understand and agree that there is an outrage about gurus who are sexual predators, I kind of don't get why is there no outrage about the stupidity of those women who knowingly and willingly sleep with their guru for whatever purpose. I guess it is because nowadays people like to be victims and other people like to outraged on the behalf of others.
Interesting view and I partly agree (or partly disagree?). I think the #metoo was a great campaign to show how much sexual misconduct is there. That is is great and needed. For example after an oral examination a teacher started touching my friend and asking her for some "other way" of saying "thank you for the good mark". This should stop and it is good that it was being pointed out. I am glad that some real predators were pointed out, but it seems that we have gotten to a bad place and started pointing fingers at men who have been just sleazy or very clumsy in social communication.

But yes, there should be some distinction between real victims and some who just wanted power or position. For example in case of Louis CK, it seems he didn't really for anyone to see him masturbate. Yes it was creepy and really weird what he has done. He is a perv, but those women (afaik) have always had a choice of leaving. But who knows.
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

Simon E.
Posts: 5294
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: The Real "Dark Age"

Post by Simon E. » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:01 pm

Josef wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:59 pm
The dark age is marked by tulkus mocking victims of sexual abuse on the internet.
Sadhu! :namaste: And by those who join in the victim blaming.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

User avatar
Grigoris
Global Moderator
Posts: 16682
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: The Real "Dark Age"

Post by Grigoris » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:38 pm

Josef wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:59 pm
The dark age is marked by tulkus mocking victims of sexual abuse on the internet.
And Vajrayana practitioners disparaging Gurus...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

User avatar
Mantrik
Posts: 1180
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:55 pm
Contact:

Re: The Real "Dark Age"

Post by Mantrik » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:55 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:38 pm
Josef wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:59 pm
The dark age is marked by tulkus mocking victims of sexual abuse on the internet.
And Vajrayana practitioners disparaging Gurus...

Vajrayana practitioners should not disparage their Master, so the vow says. However, I can see no reason not to expose and hold to account those who are abusive as they immediately disqualify themselves from any samaya relationship as far as I'm concerned. I don't believe samaya includes silent suffering of abuse on pain of spending kalpas in the hell realms for speaking out.

In other places, I am sometimes asked to support victims of a predatory cult and its leader - and I couldn't give a flying firkin of respect for the robes he wears or pantomime Tantric Vows his victims took.
http://www.khyung.com

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

Simon E.
Posts: 5294
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: The Real "Dark Age"

Post by Simon E. » Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:59 pm

:good:
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

User avatar
Grigoris
Global Moderator
Posts: 16682
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: The Real "Dark Age"

Post by Grigoris » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:19 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:55 pm
Vajrayana practitioners should not disparage their Master, so the vow says. However, I can see no reason not to expose and hold to account those who are abusive as they immediately disqualify themselves from any samaya relationship as far as I'm concerned. I don't believe samaya includes silent suffering of abuse on pain of spending kalpas in the hell realms for speaking out.

In other places, I am sometimes asked to support victims of a predatory cult and its leader - and I couldn't give a flying firkin of respect for the robes he wears or pantomime Tantric Vows his victims took.
Josef was not referring to the abuser.

I did not say that abusers should not be held to account.

"disparage
dɪˈsparɪdʒ
verb
regard or represent as being of little worth."

Even cult leaders can teach us a valuable and important lesson, like: "Don't trust cult leaders." ;)
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

TaTa
Posts: 414
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:15 am

Re: The Real "Dark Age"

Post by TaTa » Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:32 pm

So now every thread abouT DKR is going to be a DKR bashing thread?

User avatar
Mantrik
Posts: 1180
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:55 pm
Contact:

Re: The Real "Dark Age"

Post by Mantrik » Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:19 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:19 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:55 pm
Vajrayana practitioners should not disparage their Master, so the vow says. However, I can see no reason not to expose and hold to account those who are abusive as they immediately disqualify themselves from any samaya relationship as far as I'm concerned. I don't believe samaya includes silent suffering of abuse on pain of spending kalpas in the hell realms for speaking out.

In other places, I am sometimes asked to support victims of a predatory cult and its leader - and I couldn't give a flying firkin of respect for the robes he wears or pantomime Tantric Vows his victims took.
Josef was not referring to the abuser.

I did not say that abusers should not be held to account.

"disparage
dɪˈsparɪdʒ
verb
regard or represent as being of little worth."

Even cult leaders can teach us a valuable and important lesson, like: "Don't trust cult leaders." ;)
I responded to your comment, which needed qualifying, I feel. ;)
http://www.khyung.com

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

User avatar
Josef
Posts: 1921
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm
Contact:

Re: The Real "Dark Age"

Post by Josef » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:35 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:19 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:55 pm
Vajrayana practitioners should not disparage their Master, so the vow says. However, I can see no reason not to expose and hold to account those who are abusive as they immediately disqualify themselves from any samaya relationship as far as I'm concerned. I don't believe samaya includes silent suffering of abuse on pain of spending kalpas in the hell realms for speaking out.

In other places, I am sometimes asked to support victims of a predatory cult and its leader - and I couldn't give a flying firkin of respect for the robes he wears or pantomime Tantric Vows his victims took.
Josef was not referring to the abuser.

I did not say that abusers should not be held to account.

"disparage
dɪˈsparɪdʒ
verb
regard or represent as being of little worth."

Even cult leaders can teach us a valuable and important lesson, like: "Don't trust cult leaders." ;)
Not trusting cult leaders is a good lesson for sure.
Avoiding hypocritical teachers is another good lesson. As is staying out of relationships with people who don’t consider or respect your humanity.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27365
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: The Real "Dark Age"

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:43 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 1:38 pm
Josef wrote:
Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:59 pm
The dark age is marked by tulkus mocking victims of sexual abuse on the internet.
And Vajrayana practitioners disparaging Gurus...
Some gurus should be disparaged, even by their own students.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Grigoris
Global Moderator
Posts: 16682
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: The Real "Dark Age"

Post by Grigoris » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:07 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:43 pm
Some gurus should be disparaged, even by their own students.
I disagree. I think they should be held to account. I believe that people should be informed about their actions. But just belittling teachers, I don't think that benefits anybody. I imagine if one checks the motivation behind these sort of statements, it would just be aversion, and that certainly does nothing to help the commentator.

So in this case, for example, one does not find fault in what is being said, since what is being said is essentially faultless, so one turns to character assassination instead. So once you convince the reader of the passage, that the person that wrote the passage has a faulty character, what does that mean? That the passage is incorrect? Sounds like an ad hom logic fallacy to me.

Another example: One time (unbeknownst to me as I was ignorant at the time of who wrote the book) I brought and read a commentary on lojong by the teacher of the cult group following the gyalpo. The commentary was almost word for word identical to what I had been taught by a highly trained legitimate teacher in a recognised sect, with highly regarded and well known teachers. If, I was to have read the book based on my current aversion of the cult leader, I may have missed the fact that the commentary was actually really bloody good.

I feel the same thing is happening now.

Truth is that what is happening here is a clear case of meta-discussion anyway, and so will soon be going to the Dharma Wheel circular filing cabinet (ie trash can).
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27365
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: The Real "Dark Age"

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:12 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:07 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:43 pm
Some gurus should be disparaged, even by their own students.
I disagree. I think they should be held to account.
Under traditional definitions, that would be "disparaging" them.
I believe that people should be informed about their actions.
Under traditional definitions, that would be "disparaging" them.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: heart, humble.student, ratna, Tenma and 54 guests