New Rigpa letter

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Lingpupa
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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by Lingpupa » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:18 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:35 am
Basically they are trying to force him to admit guilt and apologise by (taking the moral high gorund publicly and) turning public opinion against him.
As well they should. Public opinion still hasn't caught up with reality, and the sooner public opinion turns against him the better.

My summary of the situation, if anyone is interested, is at my old blog http://chagchen.org/2018/01/11/sogyal-s ... ats-score/, into which I'm trying to breathe new life.
All the best
Alex Wilding
Stupa in the Snow blog at http://chagchen.org/

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Tiago Simões
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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by Tiago Simões » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:25 am

Lingpupa wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:18 am
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:35 am
Basically they are trying to force him to admit guilt and apologise by (taking the moral high gorund publicly and) turning public opinion against him.
As well they should. Public opinion still hasn't caught up with reality, and the sooner public opinion turns against him the better.
This might not be a very popular opinion... But for Buddhism's sake, it might be better if SR just stayed in hiding for as long as he has to live... (Prob not much).

Rigpa's future is a much more important matter...

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by PuerAzaelis » Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:46 pm

It didn’t really click with me before. A lot of the physical violence happened in classes in front of dozens of people. But it didn’t occur to even one of them to call the police.

Someone will eventually get the bright idea to try to obtain Rigpa’s financials. A “sybaritic lifestyle” doesn’t just happen by itself.

And when #metoo wakes up to this it will make Harvey Weinstein look like Mother Teresa.
Lingpupa wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:18 am
Public opinion still hasn't caught up with reality ...
100% that is they point. We are still in the momentum gathering phase. This new Riga board are under the charming misapprehension that they can still manage this. When something like this really hits the fan it is always bigger than anybody thinks.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

For posts from this user, see Karma Dondrup Tashi account.

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Josef
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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by Josef » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:00 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:33 am
Josef wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:17 pm
The US would probably prefer he just stay away, Osho style.
Osho was jailed in the US. His follwers believe he was poisoned in jail, leading to his death by heart failure.
Uh, he was deported and died in India years later.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

Simon E.
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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by Simon E. » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:17 pm

There is ample evidence that Osho had a number of physical ailments which were either caused or exacerbated, by a range of addictions including to laughing gas ( :shrug: ) and barbiturates.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Grigoris
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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:27 pm

Josef wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:00 pm
He was jailed initially. I didn't say that he died instantly.
In November 1987, Rajneesh expressed his belief that his deteriorating health (nausea, fatigue, pain in extremities and lack of resistance to infection) was due to poisoning by the US authorities while in prison. His doctors and former attorney, Philip J. Toelkes (Swami Prem Niren), hypothesised radiation and thallium in a deliberately irradiated mattress, since his symptoms were concentrated on the right side of his body, but presented no hard evidence. US attorney Charles H. Hunter described this as "complete fiction", while others suggested exposure to HIV or chronic diabetes and stress.
He only spent 12 days in six different jails as he was shuffled around awaiting sentencing.

And what does "exposure to HIV" even mean? That he was infected with HIV and died of AIDS related symptoms?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Josef
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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by Josef » Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:13 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:27 pm
Josef wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:00 pm
He was jailed initially. I didn't say that he died instantly.
In November 1987, Rajneesh expressed his belief that his deteriorating health (nausea, fatigue, pain in extremities and lack of resistance to infection) was due to poisoning by the US authorities while in prison. His doctors and former attorney, Philip J. Toelkes (Swami Prem Niren), hypothesised radiation and thallium in a deliberately irradiated mattress, since his symptoms were concentrated on the right side of his body, but presented no hard evidence. US attorney Charles H. Hunter described this as "complete fiction", while others suggested exposure to HIV or chronic diabetes and stress.
He only spent 12 days in six different jails as he was shuffled around awaiting sentencing.

And what does "exposure to HIV" even mean? That he was infected with HIV and died of AIDS related symptoms?
I think it probably means that he had HIV.
Which wouldn’t be at all surprising.

My initial statement about Sogyal staying away is probably far more likely than any criminal court case in the States. Our justice system is in shambles and I highly doubt Sogyal has any interest in finding out what kind of greeting he would get here.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

PeterC
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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by PeterC » Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:15 am

Josef wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:13 pm
My initial statement about Sogyal staying away is probably far more likely than any criminal court case in the States. Our justice system is in shambles and I highly doubt Sogyal has any interest in finding out what kind of greeting he would get here.
The US isn't the only jurisdiction in which they could bring a case. But I agree, his retreat in a friendly country is probably motivated by that in part.

That said: if the letter-writers really wanted to escalate this, the best route probably isn't trying to get criminal charges brought against Sogyal himself for abusing people. Witness testimony would be contradictory and unreliable. It would be easier to go after Rigpa itself, which is incorporated as a charity in multiple countries and subject to all sorts of different regulations in each on how it uses its funds. You only need one prosecutor one countries (or in some cases the regulatory body that oversees charities) to start an investigation, and everything is out in the open. They're never going to get an apology from Sogyal or Rigpa, but what they could do is make sure Rigpa ceases to exist as an organization. However they should think carefully before doing this, as it will potentially touch on all the lamas who have taught at and therefore received money from Rigpa, which includes many great teachers who have done nothing wrong.

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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by DGA » Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:50 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:35 am
DGA wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:06 am

They aren't really writing to SL, or SL alone. They are writing to a global audience, and in doing so, they are trying to demonstrate what their values are. They are performing. They are showing that they are the kinds of practitioners who assume the best in their erstwhile teacher and who try to see the best in others.

They are also showing a commitment to that dreaded bugbear, "western liberal values," by assuming that truth and reconciliation can be achieved through good-faith public discourse.

In other words, they are 1. taking the high ground in a way that is comprehensible to the Global North and 2. making sure it is well known they are taking the high ground.

Unrelated: Matteo Pistono's book on Terton Sogyal is worth reading, but I'm not sure what to think of his various remarks on Sogyal Lakhar, which seem contradictory to me.
Basically they are trying to force him to admit guilt and apologise by (taking the moral high gorund publicly and) turning public opinion against him.
Whether he admits guilt and apologizes or not, they are already claiming the moral high ground. Their written voice is measured, calm, and reasonable, but the subtext shouts: compare our words and deeds to those of Sogyal Lakar. They are betting that this, in itself, will push toward a consensus in their favor. And they may well be right.

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Josef
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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by Josef » Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:22 pm

DGA wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:50 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:35 am
DGA wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:06 am

They aren't really writing to SL, or SL alone. They are writing to a global audience, and in doing so, they are trying to demonstrate what their values are. They are performing. They are showing that they are the kinds of practitioners who assume the best in their erstwhile teacher and who try to see the best in others.

They are also showing a commitment to that dreaded bugbear, "western liberal values," by assuming that truth and reconciliation can be achieved through good-faith public discourse.

In other words, they are 1. taking the high ground in a way that is comprehensible to the Global North and 2. making sure it is well known they are taking the high ground.

Unrelated: Matteo Pistono's book on Terton Sogyal is worth reading, but I'm not sure what to think of his various remarks on Sogyal Lakhar, which seem contradictory to me.
Basically they are trying to force him to admit guilt and apologise by (taking the moral high gorund publicly and) turning public opinion against him.
Whether he admits guilt and apologizes or not, they are already claiming the moral high ground. Their written voice is measured, calm, and reasonable, but the subtext shouts: compare our words and deeds to those of Sogyal Lakar. They are betting that this, in itself, will push toward a consensus in their favor. And they may well be right.
Well said, D.

Hopefully the greater Buddhist community has the wisdom to assess the situation in those terms rather than siding unexamined authority.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by dzogchungpa » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:49 am

A message from Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche that seems to be referring to the current kerfuffle:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/dudjomr ... 854709277/
Everything is divided
Nothing is complete
Everything looks impressive
Do not be deceived - David Byrne

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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by Virgo » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:16 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:49 am
A message from Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche that seems to be referring to the current kerfuffle:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/dudjomr ... 854709277/
Sad.

Kevin

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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by DGA » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:17 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:49 am
A message from Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche that seems to be referring to the current kerfuffle:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/dudjomr ... 854709277/
Do any DW-ers find this convincing? I do not. Please help me understand how this is convincing.

related discussion:

viewtopic.php?f=36&t=27325

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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by DGA » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:19 am

I would like to mark in passing that Zen practitioners in North America and Europe (presumably elsewhere too) have been grappling with similar institutional challenges, to use the sort of euphemisms that lawyers find agreeable. It may be worthwhile for our friends at Rigpa and other organizations with problems that are similar in kind to consider the recent history of similarly-situated Zen groups. Why reinvent the wheel?

marting
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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by marting » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:50 am

DGA wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:17 am
dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:49 am
A message from Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche that seems to be referring to the current kerfuffle:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/dudjomr ... 854709277/
Do any DW-ers find this convincing? I do not. Please help me understand how this is convincing.

related discussion:

viewtopic.php?f=36&t=27325
What I don’t understand is how people who claim to work towards seeing “everything as display with no vital consequences in it” (Buddhists, in other words) put so much emotional investment and lingering attachment on Lama abuse situations.

Recognize it. Point it out. Leave. But trying to get the Lamas to “apologize.” For what reason?

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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by Quay » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:46 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:49 am
A message from Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche that seems to be referring to the current kerfuffle:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/dudjomr ... 854709277/
I rather like the last line of the quote from his father, Dudjom Rinpoche: "Don't get caught in the display."

Also Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche's last line: "I hope you won’t take this as criticism but rather as sound advice that will benefit all."

I'm fine with what I think is sound advice and do what I can to not get caught in the display, though I admit to not being much good at that yet.
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.

dzoki
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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by dzoki » Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:49 pm

Virgo wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:16 am
dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:49 am
A message from Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche that seems to be referring to the current kerfuffle:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/dudjomr ... 854709277/
Sad.

Kevin

I don´t think it refers to Sogayl thing, I think it refers to the outrage about Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche´s comments and jokes on the facebook. If it were a reaction to Sogyal scandal, it would seem a quite late to the party. Just my opinion.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by dzogchungpa » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:11 pm

dzoki wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:49 pm
I don´t think it refers to Sogayl thing, I think it refers to the outrage about Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche´s comments and jokes on the facebook. If it were a reaction to Sogyal scandal, it would seem a quite late to the party. Just my opinion.

Well, the DJKR stuff may have prompted him to get involved but I can't imagine that it is not meant to refer primarily to Sogyal.
Everything is divided
Nothing is complete
Everything looks impressive
Do not be deceived - David Byrne

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Josef
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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by Josef » Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:19 pm

dzoki wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:49 pm
Virgo wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:16 am
dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:49 am
A message from Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche that seems to be referring to the current kerfuffle:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/dudjomr ... 854709277/
Sad.

Kevin

I don´t think it refers to Sogayl thing, I think it refers to the outrage about Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche´s comments and jokes on the facebook. If it were a reaction to Sogyal scandal, it would seem a quite late to the party. Just my opinion.
I agree. This seems more directed at the mess his nephew has made.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Grigoris
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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by Grigoris » Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:31 pm

DGA wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:17 am
dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:49 am
A message from Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche that seems to be referring to the current kerfuffle:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/dudjomr ... 854709277/
Do any DW-ers find this convincing? I do not. Please help me understand how this is convincing.

related discussion:

viewtopic.php?f=36&t=27325
What do you find unconvincing about the logic that negative mind states generated in reaction to negative events/circumstances lead to suffering?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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