New Rigpa letter

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Malcolm
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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:27 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:31 pm
DGA wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:17 am
dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:49 am
A message from Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche that seems to be referring to the current kerfuffle:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/dudjomr ... 854709277/
Do any DW-ers find this convincing? I do not. Please help me understand how this is convincing.

related discussion:

viewtopic.php?f=36&t=27325
What do you find unconvincing about the logic that negative mind states generated in reaction to negative events/circumstances lead to suffering?
I don't think that particular point is what people find unconvincing.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by Grigoris » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:40 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:27 pm
I don't think that particular point is what people find unconvincing.
That is what I felt as being the main thrust of the letter. Is there something I missed?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by Virgo » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:50 pm

dzoki wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:49 pm


I don´t think it refers to Sogayl thing, I think it refers to the outrage about Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche´s comments and jokes on the facebook. If it were a reaction to Sogyal scandal, it would seem a quite late to the party. Just my opinion.
Perhaps dzoki, it's hard to say.

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Malcolm
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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:54 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:40 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:27 pm
I don't think that particular point is what people find unconvincing.
That is what I felt as being the main thrust of the letter. Is there something I missed?
I think the point some people find unconvincing is the idea that we should refuse to judge lamas on the basis of their observable behavior. Rinpoche says:
It is best not to criticize other teachers because you do not have the insight or the wisdom to do so. Your judgement is based on intellectual understanding and you do not have the depth of awareness or clairvoyance to see the many different lifetimes that a teacher has accumulated and practiced.
This is a blanket statement that only people with clairvoyance have the right to exercise judgement about teachers not their own. I think this is one major point people find unconvincing.

However, this is a missive directed to his own students, given the personal nature of the communication:
This guidance comes from me now not as a reprimand, but as a result of the fact that I love you all and I am concerned. It comes because I don’t want you to cultivate more negativity which would bring about a narrowing of your mind.
So, whether we agree with this advice or not, it is not really meant for the public. It is meant for students of Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche specifically. It's pretty clear he is concerned about his students piling on the "Sogyal is a monster" train, and that he thinks this is bad for them and their practice.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by Grigoris » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:37 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:54 pm
This is a blanket statement that only people with clairvoyance have the right to exercise judgement about teachers not their own. I think this is one major point people find unconvincing.
I disagree because he states: "...the depth of awareness or clairvoyance..." (emphasis is mine). I take this to mean that the people involved in judging do not have all the information and they are not clairvoyant, so on what basis do they judge? He says "intellectual understanding", but I think many involved don't even have this. Many of those involved in judging just do so from a position of ignorance and aversion and that is undeniably damaging. In which case it is better to just keep one's mouth shut.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by dzogchungpa » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:58 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:54 pm
However, this is a missive directed to his own students, given the personal nature of the communication:
This guidance comes from me now not as a reprimand, but as a result of the fact that I love you all and I am concerned. It comes because I don’t want you to cultivate more negativity which would bring about a narrowing of your mind.
So, whether we agree with this advice or not, it is not really meant for the public. It is meant for students of Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche specifically. It's pretty clear he is concerned about his students piling on the "Sogyal is a monster" train, and that he thinks this is bad for them and their practice.

Well, SDR's son Namgay Dawa Rinpoche posted it to the H.H. Dudjom Jigdrel Yeshe Dorje FB group, of which he (NDR) is an administrator, so presumably it is meant for anyone who is interested in Dudjom Rinpoche.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Tiago Simões
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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by Tiago Simões » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:58 pm

Here's a comment on FB from Rinpoche to keep things in context:

Image

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Malcolm
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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:06 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:58 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:54 pm
However, this is a missive directed to his own students, given the personal nature of the communication:
This guidance comes from me now not as a reprimand, but as a result of the fact that I love you all and I am concerned. It comes because I don’t want you to cultivate more negativity which would bring about a narrowing of your mind.
So, whether we agree with this advice or not, it is not really meant for the public. It is meant for students of Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche specifically. It's pretty clear he is concerned about his students piling on the "Sogyal is a monster" train, and that he thinks this is bad for them and their practice.

Well, SDR's son Namgay Dawa Rinpoche posted it to the H.H. Dudjom Jigdrel Yeshe Dorje FB group, of which he (NDR) is an administrator, so presumably it is meant for anyone who is interested in Dudjom Rinpoche.
The letter of the infamous gang of eight was posted to facebook too, does that mean it was also "meant" for us? It was never meant for public consumption, actually.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:08 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:37 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:54 pm
This is a blanket statement that only people with clairvoyance have the right to exercise judgement about teachers not their own. I think this is one major point people find unconvincing.
I disagree
Of course you don't agree Greg. You never do, about anything.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by Grigoris » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:17 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:08 pm
Of course you don't agree Greg. You never do, about anything.
Instead of engaging in ad hom logic fallacies, something which you are doing with increasing frequency nowadays, why don't you just come up with a counter to my interpretation? Why don't you try proving my interpretation wrong?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by dzogchungpa » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:31 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:06 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:58 pm
Well, SDR's son Namgay Dawa Rinpoche posted it to the H.H. Dudjom Jigdrel Yeshe Dorje FB group, of which he (NDR) is an administrator, so presumably it is meant for anyone who is interested in Dudjom Rinpoche.
The letter of the infamous gang of eight was posted to facebook too, does that mean it was also "meant" for us? It was never meant for public consumption, actually.

Um, it was not posted to FB by any of the members of the infamous gang of eight themselves or by any of their close family members, as far as I know. Anyway, what is your point? That we should not know that SDR feels this way?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by Mantrik » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:56 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:37 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:54 pm
This is a blanket statement that only people with clairvoyance have the right to exercise judgement about teachers not their own. I think this is one major point people find unconvincing.
I disagree because he states: "...the depth of awareness or clairvoyance..." (emphasis is mine). I take this to mean that the people involved in judging do not have all the information and they are not clairvoyant, so on what basis do they judge? He says "intellectual understanding", but I think many involved don't even have this. Many of those involved in judging just do so from a position of ignorance and aversion and that is undeniably damaging. In which case it is better to just keep one's mouth shut.
Surely 'depth of awareness' doesn't just mean information. I got the clear impression that he was basically trying to lead towards the advice, which I will state as an ad absurdum, that a female student should still regard her Guru as a Buddha and keep quiet about it while he is repeatedly raping her, because she lacks the spiritual development necessary to challenge that. Further, if anyone else finds out, they too must not challenge the Lamas. Been there - 'sexual lineage' cult and all. This seems no different from what people are told in abusive cults.
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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by Adamantine » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:15 pm

While the letter does not specify, I am in agreement that it was most likely inspired by the intensity of the attacks on social media directed at Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche, which were in response to a number of his own posts, beginning with the one he made about Sogyal. That said, it's open ended and intended to instill caution about flagrantly verbally criticizing dharma teachers in a public forum. Something many of us have done here, back on Esangha, on Facebook, and elsewhere. I've jumped on bandwagons myself like this and later come to regret it. I know there are many who share the sentiment, including Malcolm who has subsequently expressed regret about Aro Ter bashing back on Esangha, and other instances...

Now, I think if it's your own teacher and you see people literally being harmed and have good indications this is likely not bodhisattvic activity: there's a number of recourses, including legal ones.. and clearly this is what Namgyal Dawa Rinpoche is clarifying in his own response above. However Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche appears to be discussing more the tendency to comment on other people's teachers, in public forums. And if we've been in Vajrayana for some time, we know that unconventional methods or appearances are one of the aspects of a teacher of skillful means.. so it's not an easy thing to properly judge such a teacher, and exponentially harder from a distance. This is why 12 years of close examination are recommended in Words of My Perfect Teacher before commitment to a Vajra master . If it were easy to judge such a teacher, after reading some second hand accounts or gossip... why would we need 12 years? Perhaps reading this letter from Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche along with the Mingyur Rinpoche one titled "Seeing Everyone as the Buddha" which focuses on ethics are a good double-feature for contemplation.
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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:16 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:17 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:08 pm
Of course you don't agree Greg. You never do, about anything.
Instead of engaging in ad hom logic fallacies, something which you are doing with increasing frequency nowadays, why don't you just come up with a counter to my interpretation? Why don't you try proving my interpretation wrong?
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by Quay » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:35 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:16 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:17 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:08 pm
Of course you don't agree Greg. You never do, about anything.
Instead of engaging in ad hom logic fallacies, something which you are doing with increasing frequency nowadays, why don't you just come up with a counter to my interpretation? Why don't you try proving my interpretation wrong?
:applause: Best use of a Chris & Cosey creation I've seen in a long while.

Back to the apparent topic, Adamantine mentions the advice given in Words of My Perfect Teacher about examining a teacher for twelve years before making a commitment. In today's fast-paced world that may seem like an eternity, but it would be time well spent if a person has doubts or, most especially, if they feel like they must take advantage of something before it's gone. That last meaning the kind of anxiety produced by salesmen who assure you that if you don't grab this totally remarkable offer now it will be gone tomorrow. If students are ready teachers show up. No need to rush. If one comes and goes there will likely be another.

I say that as someone who rushed into a commitment with a teacher before properly examining my own mind and especially my own motives. I learned a lot when I had to stop that commitment and reflect upon it all. Something I did for over a year. Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche's letter is clear to my own mind, especially the quote from his father about not getting caught in the display. It should also be clear from Namgyal Dawa Rimpoche's post on FB that one is not to abandon their own reason and discrimination in any of these matters. When it's all read and contemplated, each practitioner must make their own decision about a teacher, including not having any teacher in the Vajrayana sense. There are plenty of paths in Buddhism, to say the least, and not everyone is in a place where they wish to have that kind of student-guru relationship.
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There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.

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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by Grigoris » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:46 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:56 pm
Surely 'depth of awareness' doesn't just mean information. I got the clear impression that he was basically trying to lead towards the advice, which I will state as an ad absurdum, that a female student should still regard her Guru as a Buddha and keep quiet about it while he is repeatedly raping her, because she lacks the spiritual development necessary to challenge that. Further, if anyone else finds out, they too must not challenge the Lamas. Been there - 'sexual lineage' cult and all. This seems no different from what people are told in abusive cults.
Fine. But we are running the risk of reducing the view of Vajrayana to merely a tool for rape enabling and cult formation. We are throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by Grigoris » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:49 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:16 pm
I'm not trying to convince you of anything, I am just disagreeing with you and stating my viewpoint. You can like it, lump it, or ignore it, but resorting to ad hom logical fallacies in an attempt to negate it, is pretty weak and petty.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by Mantrik » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:59 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:46 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:56 pm
Surely 'depth of awareness' doesn't just mean information. I got the clear impression that he was basically trying to lead towards the advice, which I will state as an ad absurdum, that a female student should still regard her Guru as a Buddha and keep quiet about it while he is repeatedly raping her, because she lacks the spiritual development necessary to challenge that. Further, if anyone else finds out, they too must not challenge the Lamas. Been there - 'sexual lineage' cult and all. This seems no different from what people are told in abusive cults.
Fine. But we are running the risk of reducing the view of Vajrayana to merely a tool for rape enabling and cult formation. We are throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Are we? No, we aren't. If you don't expose and remove dry rot, then your whole edifice collapses. If you expose it and remove it, the strength is retained and you can build on it.
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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by dzogchungpa » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:12 pm

This should be interesting.
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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by Grigoris » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:53 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:59 pm
Are we? No, we aren't. If you don't expose and remove dry rot, then your whole edifice collapses. If you expose it and remove it, the strength is retained and you can build on it.
Again I agree. But what I see happening is that every time a teacher mentions the Vajrayana practice of pure vision... EVERY TIME.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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