New Rigpa letter

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Sonam Wangchug
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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:37 am

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:53 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:59 pm
Are we? No, we aren't. If you don't expose and remove dry rot, then your whole edifice collapses. If you expose it and remove it, the strength is retained and you can build on it.
Again I agree. But what I see happening is that every time a teacher mentions the Vajrayana practice of pure vision... EVERY TIME.
Every time, no matter who says it, and no matter how crucial they say it is to the path.

As far as whether the letter was intended for the public, or for just HH's students, I would gather that it was intended for the public. He mentioned about things happening on social media, which by and large is public, and he sent his letter out through social media. His Son made the post public instead of just for friends, and also it was posted by his son to the group of dudjom rinpoche, so clearly for all whom are connected to HH Dudjom rinpoche.

I don't know, maybe we could stand to do a little good listening to the words of Dzogchen masters instead of people who are intellectual learned about Dzogchen. HH the Dudjom yangsi mentioned in a long life prayer written for Rinpoche that although all phenomena have dissolved for you, out of compassion you still benefit sentient beings. I fully believe that. In this dark age it's only beneficial to listen to authentic wisdom guides.

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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by pemachophel » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:48 am

i agree with Greg that there is a danger in rejecting the entire concept and practice of pure perception. the whole issue of pure perception is a very thorny one fraught with unavoidable danger. i think it's important to remember that the vajrayana is A) inherently dangerous and B) not for everyone.

for me, the current scandal indicates that some Teachers and many, many students have either downplayed or are ignorant of the inherent danger of vajrayana. if this crisis helps to restore proper caution in entering into a vajrayana Teacher-student relationship, then, imo, it will have had a good outcome. if it results in large-scale rejection of the principle and practice of pure perception, then the vajrayana will have lost it's power to liberate.

caveat emptor.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

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dzogchungpa
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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:05 am

pemachophel wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:48 am
i agree with Greg that there is a danger in rejecting the entire concept and practice of pure perception. the whole issue of pure perception is a very thorny one fraught with unavoidable danger. i think it's important to remember that the vajrayana is A) inherently dangerous and B) not for everyone.

That doesn't sound very marketable.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Thomas Amundsen
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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:50 am

pemachophel wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:48 am
i agree with Greg that there is a danger in rejecting the entire concept and practice of pure perception. the whole issue of pure perception is a very thorny one fraught with unavoidable danger. i think it's important to remember that the vajrayana is A) inherently dangerous and B) not for everyone.

for me, the current scandal indicates that some Teachers and many, many students have either downplayed or are ignorant of the inherent danger of vajrayana. if this crisis helps to restore proper caution in entering into a vajrayana Teacher-student relationship, then, imo, it will have had a good outcome. if it results in large-scale rejection of the principle and practice of pure perception, then the vajrayana will have lost it's power to liberate.

caveat emptor.
:good:

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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by MiphamFan » Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:41 am

Reminder that Lakar never actually gave empowerments.

TaTa
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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by TaTa » Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:21 am

MiphamFan wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:41 am
Reminder that Lakar never actually gave empowerments.
I thought he have DI. I am mistaken?

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Adamantine
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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by Adamantine » Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:28 am

MiphamFan wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:41 am
Reminder that Lakar never actually gave empowerments.
As you can see in this extensive list of empowerments given to
the Rigpa sangha, he gave one called Tendrel Nyesel a number
of times over the years. I'm sure there are many who did not receive that from him, and many who did.

http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... gpa_Sangha
Tendrel Nyesel

Tendrel Nyesel (Tib. རྟེན་འབྲེལ་ཉེས་སེལ་, Wyl. rten ‘brel nyes sel) is a terma revealed by Tertön Sogyal, containing sadhanas and teachings.[1] It is a special practice for eliminating (Tib. sel) flaws (Tib. nyé) in interdependent circumstances (Tib. tendrel) by invoking Guru Padmasambhava, together with the buddhas and bodhisattvas and the mandalas of the hundred peaceful and wrathful deities, Tsokchen Düpa, Lama Gongdü and Kagyé.
The terma of Tendrel Nyesel contains three practices:
an elaborate or long one, ‘The Profound Instruction of Tendrel Nyesel’;
a medium length one, ‘The Medium Length Practice of Tendrel Nyesel’ and
a brief one, ‘The Brief Practice of Tendrel Nyesel’.
It is the brief one that the Rigpa sangha uses for daily practice. The medium length one is traditionally used during Tendrel Nyesel drupchös and drupchens.
Last edited by Adamantine on Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by MiphamFan » Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:31 am

I am going by this information from mutsuk:
Agreed. I said above that I need to be corrected on that point if necessary. My source for that is the late François Calmes (Rigpa, Paris, he passed away in May 2009 if I remember well) who was Lakar's french translator for years. I heard JLA say the same thing to me recently (implying there is no samaya breaking because there was no samaya given at all). This obviously needs confirmation or substantiated contradiction, I agree with that.
I did not know either until François Calmes informed me (and that was ages ago). JLA's info comes from two different sources, starting with one from Calmes and another person who were two pillars of Rigpa France and completely devoted students of Lakar. The list of transmissions given at Rigpa available on the internet is of course incomplete but one can see that whatever Lakar is said to have given turns around the rTen-'brel nyes-sel and from what Calmes said, it was not a "formal initiation" but a general reading over the actual text (which was not even transmitted; I have some tapes of these "transmissions" here which I will listen to tonight). However, I agree that the whole issue about his being authorized to give initiations or not has to be substantiated by first-hand witnesses who are still alive. If this is substantiated, then the whole issue about samaya is gone
It wasn't even a lung that was transmitted.

He did not establish any samaya.

It would be nice to ask any of the 8 letter writers whether Lakar really gave them any empowerment or lung.

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Malcolm
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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:15 am

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:49 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:16 pm
I'm not trying to convince you of anything, I am just disagreeing with you and stating my viewpoint. You can like it, lump it, or ignore it, but resorting to ad hom logical fallacies in an attempt to negate it, is pretty weak and petty.
Not Greg, you got it backwards. I find it is of no use trying to convince people of anything.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:21 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:12 pm
This should be interesting.
Well, the Catholic Church murdered Galileo...but guess whose point of view we all have confirmed through reasoning confirmed with valid cognition...
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:36 am

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:53 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:59 pm
Are we? No, we aren't. If you don't expose and remove dry rot, then your whole edifice collapses. If you expose it and remove it, the strength is retained and you can build on it.
Again I agree. But what I see happening is that every time a teacher mentions the Vajrayana practice of pure vision... EVERY TIME.
If one”s own vision of all phenomena is not pure in every way, tellling other people to practice pure vision is pure hypocrisy, whether or not one is a teacher.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Javierfv1212
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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by Javierfv1212 » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:47 am

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:36 am
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:53 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:59 pm
Are we? No, we aren't. If you don't expose and remove dry rot, then your whole edifice collapses. If you expose it and remove it, the strength is retained and you can build on it.
Again I agree. But what I see happening is that every time a teacher mentions the Vajrayana practice of pure vision... EVERY TIME.
If one”s own vision of all phenomena is not pure in every way, tellling other people to practice pure vision is pure hypocrisy, whether or not one is a teacher.
Wait, wouldn't this mean that only fully enlightened Buddhas can act as gurus then?

What about teachers who don't have perfect pure vision, but are still decent, upholders of the precepts and vows?
It is quite impossible to find the Buddha anywhere other than in one's own mind.
~Padmasambhava

Amid those who are self-constrained, the Stable One would not posit as categorically true or false
anything seen, heard, or sensed, clung to and considered truth by others.
Since they have already seen this dart to which people cling and adhere,
saying “I know, I see, it is just so,”
the Tathāgatas cling to nothing.
-Kalaka sutta

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dzogchungpa
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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:05 am

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:21 am
dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:12 pm
This should be interesting.
Well, the Catholic Church murdered Galileo...but guess whose point of view we all have confirmed through reasoning confirmed with valid cognition...

Well, I don't really understand what you are trying to say but as a point of information, Galileo was not murdered.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

TaTa
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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by TaTa » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:54 am

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:36 am
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:53 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:59 pm
Are we? No, we aren't. If you don't expose and remove dry rot, then your whole edifice collapses. If you expose it and remove it, the strength is retained and you can build on it.
Again I agree. But what I see happening is that every time a teacher mentions the Vajrayana practice of pure vision... EVERY TIME.
If one”s own vision of all phenomena is not pure in every way, tellling other people to practice pure vision is pure hypocrisy, whether or not one is a teacher.
What? :shrug:

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heart
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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by heart » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:02 am

MiphamFan wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:31 am
I am going by this information from mutsuk:
Agreed. I said above that I need to be corrected on that point if necessary. My source for that is the late François Calmes (Rigpa, Paris, he passed away in May 2009 if I remember well) who was Lakar's french translator for years. I heard JLA say the same thing to me recently (implying there is no samaya breaking because there was no samaya given at all). This obviously needs confirmation or substantiated contradiction, I agree with that.
I did not know either until François Calmes informed me (and that was ages ago). JLA's info comes from two different sources, starting with one from Calmes and another person who were two pillars of Rigpa France and completely devoted students of Lakar. The list of transmissions given at Rigpa available on the internet is of course incomplete but one can see that whatever Lakar is said to have given turns around the rTen-'brel nyes-sel and from what Calmes said, it was not a "formal initiation" but a general reading over the actual text (which was not even transmitted; I have some tapes of these "transmissions" here which I will listen to tonight). However, I agree that the whole issue about his being authorized to give initiations or not has to be substantiated by first-hand witnesses who are still alive. If this is substantiated, then the whole issue about samaya is gone
It wasn't even a lung that was transmitted.

He did not establish any samaya.

It would be nice to ask any of the 8 letter writers whether Lakar really gave them any empowerment or lung.
This might be correct but it is my understanding that he gives direct introduction very often and this is why they all feel like they have samaya with him.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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heart
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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by heart » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:12 am

pemachophel wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:48 am
i agree with Greg that there is a danger in rejecting the entire concept and practice of pure perception. the whole issue of pure perception is a very thorny one fraught with unavoidable danger. i think it's important to remember that the vajrayana is A) inherently dangerous and B) not for everyone.

for me, the current scandal indicates that some Teachers and many, many students have either downplayed or are ignorant of the inherent danger of vajrayana. if this crisis helps to restore proper caution in entering into a vajrayana Teacher-student relationship, then, imo, it will have had a good outcome. if it results in large-scale rejection of the principle and practice of pure perception, then the vajrayana will have lost it's power to liberate.

caveat emptor.
I do agree with this. Nicely put, thanks.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by MiphamFan » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:13 am

I don't know, need the letter writers themselves to confirm. Also impossible for us to confirm other people's reception of direct introduction even if he allegedly gave it.

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heart
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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by heart » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:18 am

MiphamFan wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:13 am
I don't know, need the letter writers themselves to confirm. Also impossible for us to confirm other people's reception of direct introduction even if he allegedly gave it.
Yes, but that is how it is in Dzogchen. I only seen Sogyal Rinpoche teach once and he was talking about rigpa all the time.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

MiphamFan
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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by MiphamFan » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:20 am

heart wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:18 am
MiphamFan wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:13 am
I don't know, need the letter writers themselves to confirm. Also impossible for us to confirm other people's reception of direct introduction even if he allegedly gave it.
Yes, but that is how it is in Dzogchen. I only seen Sogyal Rinpoche teach once and he was talking about rigpa all the time.

/magnus
Anyone can talk about rigpa and recite words one has memorized, but we ordinary beings can't judge whether anything was actually transmitted or whether the transmitter is even authentic.

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Re: New Rigpa letter

Post by heart » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:27 am

MiphamFan wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:20 am
heart wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:18 am
MiphamFan wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:13 am
I don't know, need the letter writers themselves to confirm. Also impossible for us to confirm other people's reception of direct introduction even if he allegedly gave it.
Yes, but that is how it is in Dzogchen. I only seen Sogyal Rinpoche teach once and he was talking about rigpa all the time.

/magnus
Anyone can talk about rigpa and recite words one has memorized, but we ordinary beings can't judge whether anything was actually transmitted or whether the transmitter is even authentic.
Of course, but Rigpa is not really a cult because a wide variety of teachers have been teaching there, from the Dalai Lama to ChNNR, so you can't say either that they haven't been receiving proper teachings on every aspect of Vajrayana and Dzogchen. Based on that and what you said before they still considered Sogyal Rinpoche their root Guru.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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