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What do 'emanation of' means according to vajrayana?

Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 4:46 pm
by javier.espinoza.t
Well, question is pretty clear. In vajrayana teaching, what does it means "emanaion of" so and so?

Re: What do 'emanation of' means according to vajrayana?

Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:26 pm
by Crazywisdom
For example, for many, James Bond “embodies” the qualities of a dashing playboy.

Re: What do 'emanation of' means according to vajrayana?

Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:00 pm
by Mantrik
This term needs to be eradicated and replaced with 'e nongenderspecific ation'.
It is time that these terrible archaisms were expunged forever!! ;)

Seriosuly, as far as I know it means something literally 'handed out' or 'sent out' from a Buddha. So a Buddha can 'emanate' pretty much anything - people, spirits, rocks, etc. It seems that the term has become part of 'people puffery' with claims that such and such a person is an 'emanation' of a particular Buddha. That person may indeed be an emanation..........but so may the dog down the road.

Re: What do 'emanation of' means according to vajrayana?

Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:51 pm
by Grigoris
It would probably be a good idea to see what the original term is.

Re: What do 'emanation of' means according to vajrayana?

Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:01 pm
by tranides
སྤྲུལ - sprul, thats my guess for a word (as ive done some research in wylie) seems like emanation/manifestation is the easiest term to understand of its meaning.

regards,
Luke

Re: What do 'emanation of' means according to vajrayana?

Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:05 pm
by dzoki
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:51 pm
It would probably be a good idea to see what the original term is.
The original term is sprul pa, for example emanation of Manjushri is 'jam dbyangs kyi sprul pa, hence tulku = sprul pa'i sku.
In this way we have sku sprul, gsung sprul, thugs sprul, yon tan gyi sprul and phrin las kyi sprul.

The other term used in connection with reborn lamas is yangsi - lit. further existence, meaning new rebirth.

Re: What do 'emanation of' means according to vajrayana?

Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:12 pm
by Mantrik
dzoki wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:05 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:51 pm
It would probably be a good idea to see what the original term is.
The original term is sprul pa, for example emanation of Manjushri is 'jam dbyangs kyi sprul pa, hence tulku = sprul pa'i sku.
In this way we have sku sprul, gsung sprul, thugs sprul, yon tan gyi sprul and phrin las kyi sprul.

The other term used in connection with reborn lamas is yangsi - lit. further existence, meaning new rebirth.
That's useful, but how accurate is 'emanation' as a translation?
It is a fairly precise English term, which I explored in my cack-handed way, but I guess the OP was seeking to discover what the original Tibetan or Indian concept means.

Specifically, is an emanation a part of a Buddha sent out, or just 'something' sent out?
What objects can be emanations, and what examples are given?
Are emanations without limitation in number and form?

Re: What do 'emanation of' means according to vajrayana?

Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:53 pm
by Malcolm
Mantrik wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:12 pm
dzoki wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:05 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:51 pm
It would probably be a good idea to see what the original term is.
The original term is sprul pa, for example emanation of Manjushri is 'jam dbyangs kyi sprul pa, hence tulku = sprul pa'i sku.
In this way we have sku sprul, gsung sprul, thugs sprul, yon tan gyi sprul and phrin las kyi sprul.

The other term used in connection with reborn lamas is yangsi - lit. further existence, meaning new rebirth.
That's useful, but how accurate is 'emanation' as a translation?
It is a fairly precise English term, which I explored in my cack-handed way, but I guess the OP was seeking to discover what the original Tibetan or Indian concept means.

Specifically, is an emanation a part of a Buddha sent out, or just 'something' sent out?
What objects can be emanations, and what examples are given?
Are emanations without limitation in number and form?
Edgerton's BHS dictionary gives:


nirmita

[L=8428] [p= 302,2]

nirmita (= Pali nimmita), (1) ppp. of nirminoti,
q.v.; (2) nt., a magic creation: bhagavān °taṃ visarjayati
Divy 138.13; Av i.4.12; nirmitopamaṃ māyopamaṃ SP
137.10, like a magic creation, an illusory thing (mirage);
(3) as n. of a class of gods, = nirmāṇarati; so very
clearly in Mv ii.349.13 (vs) °tā (devāḥ), the verse equivalent
of nirmāṇaratī 348.17 (prose); elsewhere, SP 235.1--2
(prose, see s.v. samāvartayati); 237.2, 6; LV 45.11;
50.5 (read nirmitāś for nim°); 213.15; 215.13; 219.8;
sg., one of the class, 241.2; (4) n. of a former Buddha:
Mv iii.237.11; (5) n. of a Bodhisattva: Gv 442.3.


emanation (n.)
1560s, from Late Latin emanationem (nominative emanatio), noun of action from past participle stem of Latin emanare "flow out, spring out of," figuratively "arise, proceed from," from assimilated form of ex "out" (see ex-) + manare "to flow," from PIE root *ma- (3) "damp."

Tibetan sprul ba: generate (skyed), issue forth ('phro bar byed pa), issue forth as many ('gyed pa), transform ('gyur).

A sprul pa is a rnam par 'phrul pa (vikurvita).


BHS

vikurvita

[L=13624] [p= 481,2]

vikurvita, nt. (seems commonest of this group in
BHS; orig. ppp. of vikurvati, but noted only as noun;
not so used in Pali), miracle: dṛṣṭvā vikurvita mamā LV
119.8 (vs); buddha-vi° Mv i.266.17; ii.33.4 (both prose);
nirīkṣituṃ Śākyamuner °tam Divy 269.7 (vs); others,
Av i.258.9; Samādh 22.19; Bhad 45 (°vitu, acc. pl.; no
v.l.); Kv 13.17; 24.10; Mmk 6.1 (read °taṃ for °tuṃ);
Gv (common) 6.5; tathāgata-vi° 18.26, et passim.

Re: What do 'emanation of' means according to vajrayana?

Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:54 pm
by dzoki
Mantrik wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:12 pm
dzoki wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:05 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:51 pm
It would probably be a good idea to see what the original term is.
The original term is sprul pa, for example emanation of Manjushri is 'jam dbyangs kyi sprul pa, hence tulku = sprul pa'i sku.
In this way we have sku sprul, gsung sprul, thugs sprul, yon tan gyi sprul and phrin las kyi sprul.

The other term used in connection with reborn lamas is yangsi - lit. further existence, meaning new rebirth.
That's useful, but how accurate is 'emanation' as a translation?
It is a fairly precise English term, which I explored in my cack-handed way, but I guess the OP was seeking to discover what the original Tibetan or Indian concept means.

Specifically, is an emanation a part of a Buddha sent out, or just 'something' sent out?
What objects can be emanations, and what examples are given?
Are emanations without limitation in number and form?
I am no linguist, but sanskrit nirmAna of which sprul pa is a translation means to make, build, create, to transform and to provide. So I guess, creation would be better reflecting the original meaning, but I guess translators wanted to avoid it sounding like a creation of some god. Sprul - in Tibetan (apart from meaning given in dictionary as emanate) means to make appear, to transform, to mentally create.

Re: What do 'emanation of' means according to vajrayana?

Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:56 pm
by dzoki
dzoki wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:54 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:12 pm
dzoki wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:05 pm


The original term is sprul pa, for example emanation of Manjushri is 'jam dbyangs kyi sprul pa, hence tulku = sprul pa'i sku.
In this way we have sku sprul, gsung sprul, thugs sprul, yon tan gyi sprul and phrin las kyi sprul.

The other term used in connection with reborn lamas is yangsi - lit. further existence, meaning new rebirth.
That's useful, but how accurate is 'emanation' as a translation?
It is a fairly precise English term, which I explored in my cack-handed way, but I guess the OP was seeking to discover what the original Tibetan or Indian concept means.

Specifically, is an emanation a part of a Buddha sent out, or just 'something' sent out?
What objects can be emanations, and what examples are given?
Are emanations without limitation in number and form?
I am no linguist, but sanskrit nirmAna of which sprul pa is a translation means to make, build, create, to transform and to provide. So I guess, creation would be better reflecting the original meaning, but I guess translators wanted to avoid it sounding like a creation of some god. Sprul - in Tibetan (apart from meaning given in dictionary as emanate) means to make appear, to transform, to mentally create.
correction - I meant to say nouns not verbs - creation, making etc.

Re: What do 'emanation of' means according to vajrayana?

Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:15 pm
by Mantrik
Thanks Malcolm and Dzoki.

So we perhaps have a magical creation sent forth.

Is what is sent a creation only, or a part of the Buddha sending it?

Is it correct to say that any object may be an emanation, including rocks, streams etc. rather than only sentient beings?

(Note: I wrote 'handed out', because 'eman.....' (i.e. 'ex manus') would translate as 'out of hand' so didn't think it a very accurate term. )

Re: What do 'emanation of' means according to vajrayana?

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:37 am
by MiphamFan
So both in both the Tibetan and Sanskrit terms, it would be better translated as "magical creation"?

Emanation is a bad translation, makes people think of (Neo-)Platonism.

I hope I don't muddy the waters here, but it seems that maybe we could just use "tulpa" since it was popularized by Alexandra David-Neel. She wrote some fantasies about the idea, but it seems to me that the basic concept of an illusory entity is still there, as opposed to "emanation" which would probably make people with Abrahamic/Platonist backgrounds think of other stuff.

Re: What do 'emanation of' means according to vajrayana?

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:39 am
by MiphamFan
Mantrik wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:15 pm
Thanks Malcolm and Dzoki.

So we perhaps have a magical creation sent forth.

Is what is sent a creation only, or a part of the Buddha sending it?

Is it correct to say that any object may be an emanation, including rocks, streams etc. rather than only sentient beings?

(Note: I wrote 'handed out', because 'eman.....' (i.e. 'ex manus') would translate as 'out of hand' so didn't think it a very accurate term. )
According to the definition Malcolm quoted above, it's not "ex manus", it's from "ex manare" (manare = flow). "Outflowing".

This makes sense if you understand the classical worldview (which mediaeval Christians adopted). They believed in the seven planetary spheres and the prime mover beyond them. Objects are manifested on Earth after flowing down from the eternal prime mover down the spheres.

It makes less sense in a Buddhist context.

Re: What do 'emanation of' means according to vajrayana?

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:56 am
by Losal Samten
Are manomayakaya and nirmanakaya equivalent terms in Mahayana?

Re: What do 'emanation of' means according to vajrayana?

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:46 am
by Mantrik
MiphamFan wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:39 am
Mantrik wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:15 pm
Thanks Malcolm and Dzoki.

So we perhaps have a magical creation sent forth.

Is what is sent a creation only, or a part of the Buddha sending it?

Is it correct to say that any object may be an emanation, including rocks, streams etc. rather than only sentient beings?

(Note: I wrote 'handed out', because 'eman.....' (i.e. 'ex manus') would translate as 'out of hand' so didn't think it a very accurate term. )
According to the definition Malcolm quoted above, it's not "ex manus", it's from "ex manare" (manare = flow). "Outflowing".

This makes sense if you understand the classical worldview (which mediaeval Christians adopted). They believed in the seven planetary spheres and the prime mover beyond them. Objects are manifested on Earth after flowing down from the eternal prime mover down the spheres.

It makes less sense in a Buddhist context.
Ah, missed that, thanks.

Yes, it is that Vajrayana meaning which is the real question, to which I added:

''Is what is sent a creation only, or a part of the Buddha sending it?

Is it correct to say that any object may be an emanation, including rocks, streams etc. rather than only sentient beings? ''

Re: What do 'emanation of' means according to vajrayana?

Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:06 pm
by javier.espinoza.t
tranides wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:01 pm
སྤྲུལ - sprul, thats my guess for a word (as ive done some research in wylie) seems like emanation/manifestation is the easiest term to understand of its meaning.

regards,
Luke
Mm most i heared is manifestation.

Re: What do 'emanation of' means according to vajrayana?

Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:23 am
by javier.espinoza.t
Do, in tibetan buddhism, emanation really means a being that embodies some buddha-archtype? Or a portion of a great being? Or both?

Seems like a archtype/individual stuff that happens in tantra interpretation.

Re: What do 'emanation of' means according to vajrayana?

Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:21 pm
by tranides
I have found great comparison on the trikaya idea:
If we were to compare Dharmakaya to vapor, Sambhogakaya to clouds, then Nirmanakaya to rain.
And HE Tais Situpa saying: "dharmakaya, sambhogakaya, and nirmanakaya are not separate from each other. They are just three different aspects of the state of a buddha, which is indivisible."

I guess its becouse we have so many mental afflictions we cannot go trough to get to Dharmakaya, thus we need to practice to the level we can communicate with Sambhogakaya untill then we are following Nirmanakaya :)

Luke