Tibetan divination article

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climb-up
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Tibetan divination article

Post by climb-up » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:58 am

Here's a very interesting article on Tibetan styles of divination that I'm sure at least some will enjoy reading:
https://perfumedskull.com/2018/01/12/te ... ivination/

One question, if anyone knows.
I've seen ChNN demonstrate mala divination (although I don't yet have his book). I've also seen books specifically saying not to use the mala (that's used in sadhanas) for divination.
Would a diviner generally have a mala specifically for divination, and another one (or several) for their sadhanas?

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Re: Tibetan divination article

Post by lelopa » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:19 am

climb-up wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:58 am
Here's a very interesting article on Tibetan styles of divination that I'm sure at least some will enjoy reading:
https://perfumedskull.com/2018/01/12/te ... ivination/

One question, if anyone knows.
I've seen ChNN demonstrate mala divination (although I don't yet have his book). I've also seen books specifically saying not to use the mala (that's used in sadhanas) for divination.
Would a diviner generally have a mala specifically for divination, and another one (or several) for their sadhanas?
maybe not "generally"... but yes
ཨོཾ་ཨཱཿཧཱུྃ་བོ་དྷི་ཙིཏྟ་མ་ཧཱ་སུ་ཁ་ཛྙཱ་ན་དྷཱརྟུ་ཨཱཿ

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Mantrik
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Re: Tibetan divination article

Post by Mantrik » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:00 am

climb-up wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:58 am
Here's a very interesting article on Tibetan styles of divination that I'm sure at least some will enjoy reading:
https://perfumedskull.com/2018/01/12/te ... ivination/

One question, if anyone knows.
I've seen ChNN demonstrate mala divination (although I don't yet have his book). I've also seen books specifically saying not to use the mala (that's used in sadhanas) for divination.
Would a diviner generally have a mala specifically for divination, and another one (or several) for their sadhanas?
Great article, thanks. :)
ChNN has a booklet about Mala Divination which seems impossible to obtain now. Shame they don't make pdf files of the out-of-print booklets.
Of course, there is also the Yudronma dice divination system he has published.
Some shamans use the same system of mala divination and use of the melong. The melong/toli use may well predate Buddhism.
I've not personally heard of using a separate mala.
http://www.khyung.com

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

climb-up
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Re: Tibetan divination article

Post by climb-up » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:33 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:00 am
climb-up wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:58 am
Here's a very interesting article on Tibetan styles of divination that I'm sure at least some will enjoy reading:
https://perfumedskull.com/2018/01/12/te ... ivination/

One question, if anyone knows.
I've seen ChNN demonstrate mala divination (although I don't yet have his book). I've also seen books specifically saying not to use the mala (that's used in sadhanas) for divination.
Would a diviner generally have a mala specifically for divination, and another one (or several) for their sadhanas?
Great article, thanks. :)
ChNN has a booklet about Mala Divination which seems impossible to obtain now. Shame they don't make pdf files of the out-of-print booklets.
Of course, there is also the Yudronma dice divination system he has published.
Oh darn! I thought the dice divination book also contained the mala divination.
Oh well, still plan on getting the available book.
Some shamans use the same system of mala divination and use of the melong. The melong/toli use may well predate Buddhism.
I've not personally heard of using a separate mala.
I would very much like to learn the practice of the melong sometime.
I looked on-line and saw that the empowerments and teachings were given last year at Tara Mandala. I can't really afford Tara Mandala retreats (or leave my kids for that long), but I was happy to see that it's something that is offered occasionally.

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Re: Tibetan divination article

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:40 pm

climb-up wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:33 pm

I would very much like to learn the practice of the melong sometime.
I looked on-line and saw that the empowerments and teachings were given last year at Tara Mandala. I can't really afford Tara Mandala retreats (or leave my kids for that long), but I was happy to see that it's something that is offered occasionally.
You and me both, maybe one day when we are empty-nesters. it's on my long term list of things to do.
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Re: Tibetan divination article

Post by Mantrik » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:46 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:40 pm
climb-up wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:33 pm

I would very much like to learn the practice of the melong sometime.
I looked on-line and saw that the empowerments and teachings were given last year at Tara Mandala. I can't really afford Tara Mandala retreats (or leave my kids for that long), but I was happy to see that it's something that is offered occasionally.
You and me both, maybe one day when we are empty-nesters. it's on my long term list of things to do.
There is melong use and there is 'mirror divination'. The latter can consist, for example, of the Lama posing a given question to a young boy, who gazes into dark water and tells the Lama what he sees. The Lama then interprets, and gives the answer to the person who asked him.
http://www.khyung.com

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Re: Tibetan divination article

Post by climb-up » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:53 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:46 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:40 pm
climb-up wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:33 pm

I would very much like to learn the practice of the melong sometime.
I looked on-line and saw that the empowerments and teachings were given last year at Tara Mandala. I can't really afford Tara Mandala retreats (or leave my kids for that long), but I was happy to see that it's something that is offered occasionally.
You and me both, maybe one day when we are empty-nesters. it's on my long term list of things to do.
There is melong use and there is 'mirror divination'. The latter can consist, for example, of the Lama posing a given question to a young boy, who gazes into dark water and tells the Lama what he sees. The Lama then interprets, and gives the answer to the person who asked him.
It's amazing to me (although I don't know why, it also seems very reasonable) that this is all precisely the same as in the grimoires and Papyri. There is an amazing papyri description of a magician summoning a god and a boy scrying, presenting offerings and answering questions. These are repeated throughout Europe and the middle east. The looking into a polished thumbnail is there too.

I think the melong use is what I am interested in. This involves Yudfrumna sadhanas and scrying directly into the melong right?

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Re: Tibetan divination article

Post by climb-up » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:53 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:40 pm
climb-up wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:33 pm

I would very much like to learn the practice of the melong sometime.
I looked on-line and saw that the empowerments and teachings were given last year at Tara Mandala. I can't really afford Tara Mandala retreats (or leave my kids for that long), but I was happy to see that it's something that is offered occasionally.
You and me both, maybe one day when we are empty-nesters. it's on my long term list of things to do.
That is 100% part of the plan! :)

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Re: Tibetan divination article

Post by Mantrik » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:59 pm

climb-up wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:53 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:46 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:40 pm


You and me both, maybe one day when we are empty-nesters. it's on my long term list of things to do.
There is melong use and there is 'mirror divination'. The latter can consist, for example, of the Lama posing a given question to a young boy, who gazes into dark water and tells the Lama what he sees. The Lama then interprets, and gives the answer to the person who asked him.
It's amazing to me (although I don't know why, it also seems very reasonable) that this is all precisely the same as in the grimoires and Papyri. There is an amazing papyri description of a magician summoning a god and a boy scrying, presenting offerings and answering questions. These are repeated throughout Europe and the middle east. The looking into a polished thumbnail is there too.

I think the melong use is what I am interested in. This involves Yudfrumna sadhanas and scrying directly into the melong right?
Methods vary. 'Scrying' is one. Holding the melong and interpreting visions which arise is another. Inviting a deity (or spirit if shamanic) into the melong to provide visions, or for healing etc. is yet another. I have no idea what Tara Mandala do but it sounds interesting. :)
http://www.khyung.com

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Dorje Shedrub
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Re: Tibetan divination article

Post by Dorje Shedrub » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:12 pm

Does anyone know the significance of using a young boy to scry as opposed to the Lama?

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Re: Tibetan divination article

Post by Mantrik » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:14 pm

Dorje Shedrub wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:12 pm
Does anyone know the significance of using a young boy to scry as opposed to the Lama?
Virgin purity. Not all Lamas are monks, soooo . ;)

More importantly, pre-pubescent.
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Re: Tibetan divination article

Post by pemachophel » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:36 pm

depending on the practice, phra-bab/mirror divination may involve Yudronma or Tsheringma. not sure if any other Dieties are also involved with phra. these are the two that i know of.

best/easiest if you are born with phra-mig/phra eyes. this tends to run in families.

don't know about using prepubescent boys to do the seeing. my Teacher saw diectly in the mirror Himself. His mother also had phra-mig. when my Teacher was young (teens or early 20s), H.H. Dudjom Rinpoche saw that He had phra-mig and sent Him to Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche to receive a specific cycle of terma and to go through all the stages of practice, retreat, jin-sek, lay-jor, etc. so He was born with some innate ability but then underwent a very specific training to develop that ability. i know of one american student my Teacher was testing to see if he had phra-mig, but i don't think anything came of that.

according to my Teacher, at first one only sees letters or symbols in the mirror which are then interpreted according to a written guide. second stage is seeing scenes as on a tv. third stage is omniscience and no longer needing a mirror. a question is asked and one simply knows the answer. if you asked my Teacher to do phra-bab, He would get out His mirror, etc. but if you were simply with Him and asked a question, you could see Him look slightly upward and then give the answer. He had clearly reached this third level.
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Re: Tibetan divination article

Post by Mantrik » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:42 pm

pemachophel wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:36 pm
depending on the practice, phra-bab/mirror divination may involve Yudronma or Tsheringma. not sure if any other Dieties are also involved with phra. these are the two that i know of.

best/easiest if you are born with phra-mig/phra eyes. this tends to run in families.

don't know about using prepubescent boys to do the seeing. my Teacher saw diectly in the mirror Himself. His mother also had phra-mig. when my Teacher was young (teens or early 20s), H.H. Dudjom Rinpoche saw that He had phra-mig and sent Him to Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche to receive a specific cycle of terma and to go through all the stages of practice, retreat, jin-sek, lay-jor, etc. so He was born with some innate ability but then underwent a very specific training to develop that ability. i know of one american student my Teacher was testing to see if he had phra-mig, but i don't think anything came of that.

according to my Teacher, at first one only sees letters or symbols in the mirror which are then interpreted according to a written guide. second stage is seeing scenes as on a tv. third stage is omniscience and no longer needing a mirror. a question is asked and one simply knows the answer. if you asked my Teacher to do phra-bab, He would get out His mirror, etc. but if you were simply with Him and asked a question, you could see Him look slightly upward and then give the answer. He had clearly reached this third level.
Which teacher is this? Lama Dawa?

The familial ability reminds me of the family lineages of shamans and the examination they undergo.
I have observed that this is quite different from the rebirth of Tulkus etc.
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Re: Tibetan divination article

Post by Dorje Shedrub » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:54 pm

Did Lama Dawa use a boy? How does not being a virgin interfere? Something to do with channels or the deity?

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Re: Tibetan divination article

Post by pemachophel » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:59 pm

not sure about "virgin purity." could be. but, ime, i think it has more to do with the lack of agenda or ulterior motive in the young. no particular expectations, no great ego involvement, no monetary ambitions or desire for name and fame. just a game. no attachment.

i don't know if i've told this story before on DW. if so, i apologize. my paternal grandfather was from the orkneys and he had "sight." when i was in 6th grade, i was picked off the street in nyc to be tested for a new tv show. we're talking about the late 1950s. the tv show was about esp, and i was tested for identifying cards that were being turned over but which i couldn't see. i scored very, very high and was asked to come back for more testing (which got me out of school). however, at a certain point, we started winning silver dollars for each right answer. that put an end to my esp. the money clouded my otherwise niave intuition. at first the money didn't affect me, but as i began winning, i wanted to win more and i started winning less and less. because the drama of the show was based on winning money, i never got on the air. (i still have the silver dollars that i won.)

as a corollary of this, my Teacher was not allowed to ask questions about Himself. this was a samaya of the practice.

yes, i am talking about Acharya Lama Dawa Chodrak. Lama Dawa was also a Tulku. according the H.H. Dudjom Rinpoche, in one of His lives, He was Dhadichi rishi, but that's a whole other story.
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Re: Tibetan divination article

Post by Mantrik » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:01 pm

Dorje Shedrub wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:54 pm
Did Lama Dawa use a boy? How does not being a virgin interfere? Something to do with channels or the deity?
Lama Dawa's senior students are your best source for such specific information, as he is dead.

His personal website is now closed, so the detailed information on it relating to mirror divination is now unavailable.
http://www.khyung.com

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Re: Tibetan divination article

Post by Mantrik » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:06 pm

pemachophel wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:59 pm
not sure about "virgin purity." could be. but, ime, i think it has more to do with the lack of agenda or ulterior motive in the young. no particular expectations, no great ego involvement, no monetary ambitions or desire for name and fame. just a game. no attachment.

i don't know if i've told this story before on DW. if so, i apologize. my paternal grandfather was from the orkneys and he had "sight." when i was in 6th grade, i was picked off the street in nyc to be tested for a new tv show. we're talking about the late 1950s. the tv show was about esp, and i was tested for identifying cards that were being turned over but which i couldn't see. i scored very, very high and was asked to come back for more testing (which got me out of school). however, at a certain point, we started winning silver dollars for each right answer. that put an end to my esp. the money clouded my otherwise niave intuition. at first the money didn't affect me, but as i began winning, i wanted to win more and i started winning less and less. because the drama of the show was based on winning money, i never got on the air. (i still have the silver dollars that i won.)

as a corollary of this, my Teacher was not allowed to ask questions about Himself. this was a samaya of the practice.

yes, i am talking about Acharya Lama Dawa Chodrak. Lama Dawa was also a Tulku. according the H.H. Dudjom Rinpoche, in one of His lives, He was Dhadichi rishi, but that's a whole other story.

I have the greatest respect for Lama Dawa - a huge loss. His divinations helped many many people, including myself.
I'm not sure of the process he used, but it would be great if you could let us know as much as you are able to reveal.
http://www.khyung.com

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Re: Tibetan divination article

Post by pemachophel » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:09 pm

Mantrik, what do you mean by "process"? do you mean the terma cycle Lama Dawa was given by Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche?
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Re: Tibetan divination article

Post by Mantrik » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:16 pm

pemachophel wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:09 pm
Mantrik, what do you mean by "process"? do you mean the terma cycle Lama Dawa was given by Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche?
Oh no, just in simple terms, how he performed the divinations. :)
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Re: Tibetan divination article

Post by pemachophel » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:26 pm

He put His mirror in a bowl of rice. He also lit a lamp or candle. He said some prayers &/or mantra and threw rice on the mirror. once the mirror was "opened," He would answer questions from different people. during the session, there was always someone to write down the answers. at he end of a session, He would close the mirror and put out the candle or lamp. He answered exactly the question that was asked. so if your question was not very clear, so might be the answer. for complicated situations, it was best to ask a series of simple questions.

hope this what you were asking. i'm going out now. ta-ta.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

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