Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
User avatar
javier.espinoza.t
Posts: 919
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:29 am
Location: Chile

Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:19 am

If you make offering to mundane deities you can reborn in their retinue. Something to avoid, we want to free from samsara.

Brahma, god, bad spirits, good spirits, etc.

Regarding mundane beings i would reccomend only make contact with beings who have and keep samaya, like local guardians.
what are you doing

philji
Posts: 774
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 2:26 pm

Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings

Post by philji » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:32 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:19 am
If you make offering to mundane deities you can reborn in their retinue. Something to avoid, we want to free from samsara.

Brahma, god, bad spirits, good spirits, etc.

Regarding mundane beings i would reccomend only make contact with beings who have and keep samaya, like local guardians.
So if we make Sang offering to satisfy all the four guests...do the local spirits in our own area have a samaya? What possible connection could they have with dharma?

User avatar
heart
Posts: 4446
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings

Post by heart » Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:02 pm

philji wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:32 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:19 am
If you make offering to mundane deities you can reborn in their retinue. Something to avoid, we want to free from samsara.

Brahma, god, bad spirits, good spirits, etc.

Regarding mundane beings i would reccomend only make contact with beings who have and keep samaya, like local guardians.
So if we make Sang offering to satisfy all the four guests...do the local spirits in our own area have a samaya? What possible connection could they have with dharma?
The fact that we acknowledge them and offer to them is the connection they have with us. If they take an interest in Dharma through your constant application it might lead to a Dharma connection.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

User avatar
Grigoris
Global Moderator
Posts: 17957
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings

Post by Grigoris » Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:45 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:19 am
If you make offering to mundane deities you can reborn in their retinue. Something to avoid, we want to free from samsara.

Brahma, god, bad spirits, good spirits, etc.

Regarding mundane beings i would reccomend only make contact with beings who have and keep samaya, like local guardians.
Who gave you this advice? How do you know which being will keep samaya? I feed my cats, do they keep samaya? Should I avoid making a connection/contact with them? What about with other humans? Should I avoid that too? What you are saying really makes no sense.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

User avatar
javier.espinoza.t
Posts: 919
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:29 am
Location: Chile

Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:04 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:45 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:19 am
If you make offering to mundane deities you can reborn in their retinue. Something to avoid, we want to free from samsara.

Brahma, god, bad spirits, good spirits, etc.

Regarding mundane beings i would reccomend only make contact with beings who have and keep samaya, like local guardians.
Who gave you this advice? How do you know which being will keep samaya? I feed my cats, do they keep samaya? Should I avoid making a connection/contact with them? What about with other humans? Should I avoid that too? What you are saying really makes no sense.
I gave myself this advice. You know there is a white group and black group of local guardians.

Beings do keep samaya when there is no obstruction to dharma.

Very ironic, i see. But it makes sense when you do sangchod for what it is for.

If i find all this in a very ancient book from tibet would you consider it acceptable? Well this appears more or less in the sang of adzam drugpa, from idc booklet.

There is no need to believe me also, who cares.
what are you doing

philji
Posts: 774
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 2:26 pm

Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings

Post by philji » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:12 pm

heart wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:02 pm
philji wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:32 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:19 am
If you make offering to mundane deities you can reborn in their retinue. Something to avoid, we want to free from samsara.

Brahma, god, bad spirits, good spirits, etc.

Regarding mundane beings i would reccomend only make contact with beings who have and keep samaya, like local guardians.
So if we make Sang offering to satisfy all the four guests...do the local spirits in our own area have a samaya? What possible connection could they have with dharma?
The fact that we acknowledge them and offer to them is the connection they have with us. If they take an interest in Dharma through your constant application it might lead to a Dharma connection.

/magnus

Many Thanks, this makes a lot of sense.

Varis
Posts: 138
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:09 am

Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings

Post by Varis » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:51 pm

philji wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:32 pm
So if we make Sang offering to satisfy all the four guests...do the local spirits in our own area have a samaya? What possible connection could they have with dharma?
Would you not agree that contact between sentient beings results in karma? Of course we hope that our actions result in positive connections, not negative ones. But I do not think it is a stretch to say that the connections a person might make with spirits will extend to other lifetimes, if we fail to attain enlightenment in this life.

sillyrabbit
Posts: 133
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2016 3:47 am

Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings

Post by sillyrabbit » Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:13 am

Varis wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:51 pm
philji wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:32 pm
So if we make Sang offering to satisfy all the four guests...do the local spirits in our own area have a samaya? What possible connection could they have with dharma?
Would you not agree that contact between sentient beings results in karma? Of course we hope that our actions result in positive connections, not negative ones. But I do not think it is a stretch to say that the connections a person might make with spirits will extend to other lifetimes, if we fail to attain enlightenment in this life.
I think it's more about the assumption: are we assuming that the connections will result in our regression or their awakening? I favor the latter view, but it's not like I go looking for the more malevolent ones.
Namo Amitabha Buddha
:hug:

User avatar
cyril
Posts: 152
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2016 5:47 am

Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings

Post by cyril » Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:33 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:04 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:45 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:19 am
If you make offering to mundane deities you can reborn in their retinue. Something to avoid, we want to free from samsara.

Brahma, god, bad spirits, good spirits, etc.

Regarding mundane beings i would reccomend only make contact with beings who have and keep samaya, like local guardians.
Who gave you this advice? How do you know which being will keep samaya? I feed my cats, do they keep samaya? Should I avoid making a connection/contact with them? What about with other humans? Should I avoid that too? What you are saying really makes no sense.
I gave myself this advice. You know there is a white group and black group of local guardians.

Beings do keep samaya when there is no obstruction to dharma.

Very ironic, i see. But it makes sense when you do sangchod for what it is for.

If i find all this in a very ancient book from tibet would you consider it acceptable? Well this appears more or less in the sang of adzam drugpa, from idc booklet.

There is no need to believe me also, who cares.
The white group are those who are naturally inclined towards virtuous deeds including supporting the teachings and nurturing the peace and the prosperity of the place in question. That doesnt necessarily imply they have any samaya to keep, IMO.
"You have to make the good out of the bad because that is all you have got to make it out of."
- Robert Penn Warren -

User avatar
heart
Posts: 4446
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings

Post by heart » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:10 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:19 am
Regarding mundane beings i would reccomend only make contact with beings who have and keep samaya, like local guardians.
You only got samaya if you are a Vajrayana practitioner Javier. Here in the west I think most local protectors are not Vajrayana practitioners. Through Sangcho you can develop a relationship with them that eventually might become a Dharma connection since we are also inviting the three roots and the Dharma protectors. And most important is that we are developing generosity, loving kindness and Bodhicitta ourselves.

This is the same principle we use when we do "serkyem for the eight classes"

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

User avatar
javier.espinoza.t
Posts: 919
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:29 am
Location: Chile

Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:49 pm

heart wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:10 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:19 am
Regarding mundane beings i would reccomend only make contact with beings who have and keep samaya, like local guardians.
You only got samaya if you are a Vajrayana practitioner Javier. Here in the west I think most local protectors are not Vajrayana practitioners. Through Sangcho you can develop a relationship with them that eventually might become a Dharma connection since we are also inviting the three roots and the Dharma protectors. And most important is that we are developing generosity, loving kindness and Bodhicitta ourselves.

This is the same principle we use when we do "serkyem for the eight classes"

/magnus
If we have a job, we have a boss, if our boss commits to something, we are bounded to act accordingly. In the 8 clases it is like the same. Thats the point.
what are you doing

User avatar
heart
Posts: 4446
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings

Post by heart » Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:45 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:49 pm
heart wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:10 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:19 am
Regarding mundane beings i would reccomend only make contact with beings who have and keep samaya, like local guardians.
You only got samaya if you are a Vajrayana practitioner Javier. Here in the west I think most local protectors are not Vajrayana practitioners. Through Sangcho you can develop a relationship with them that eventually might become a Dharma connection since we are also inviting the three roots and the Dharma protectors. And most important is that we are developing generosity, loving kindness and Bodhicitta ourselves.

This is the same principle we use when we do "serkyem for the eight classes"

/magnus
If we have a job, we have a boss, if our boss commits to something, we are bounded to act accordingly. In the 8 clases it is like the same. Thats the point.
The local protectors and the 8 classes are not working for us, we are not their boss. We are pacifying them with our offering. If they really like you maybe you can become their boss like Nubchen Sangye Yeshe.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

User avatar
javier.espinoza.t
Posts: 919
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 12:29 am
Location: Chile

Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:03 pm

heart wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:45 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:49 pm
If we have a job, we have a boss, if our boss commits to something, we are bounded to act accordingly. In the 8 clases it is like the same. Thats the point.
The local protectors and the 8 classes are not working for us, we are not their boss. We are pacifying them with our offering. If they really like you maybe you can become their boss like Nubchen Sangye Yeshe.

/magnus
Bosses are powerful beings like dharmaphalas and so, not us in general.

By the way, everything is always done through yidam, not through our ways. If we can't control ourselves ¿how can we hope to control others? Hahah
what are you doing

User avatar
Mantrik
Posts: 1725
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:55 pm
Contact:

Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings

Post by Mantrik » Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:59 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:03 pm
heart wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:45 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:49 pm
If we have a job, we have a boss, if our boss commits to something, we are bounded to act accordingly. In the 8 clases it is like the same. Thats the point.
The local protectors and the 8 classes are not working for us, we are not their boss. We are pacifying them with our offering. If they really like you maybe you can become their boss like Nubchen Sangye Yeshe.

/magnus
Bosses are powerful beings like dharmaphalas and so, not us in general.

By the way, everything is always done through yidam, not through our ways. If we can't control ourselves ¿how can we hope to control others? Hahah
That's correct. 'You' don't. After self-generation, the deity is key to the process.
This is how people with no transmitted deity or dharmapala practice get problems when they interact with spirits, perform Phowa etc.
Do only what your Guru has taught you to do. For example, making offerings to Rahula as part of the Thun rituals you have been given is fine, but if you go off on your own and try to have a deep and meaningful relationship with Rahula using offerings and sadhanas you have not received from your Guru, and for which you are not ready, you place yourself in danger.
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

User avatar
Grigoris
Global Moderator
Posts: 17957
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:34 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 7:59 pm
That's correct. 'You' don't. After self-generation, the deity is key to the process.
Indeed!!!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Varis
Posts: 138
Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:09 am

Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings

Post by Varis » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:03 am

sillyrabbit wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:13 am
I think it's more about the assumption: are we assuming that the connections will result in our regression or their awakening? I favor the latter view, but it's not like I go looking for the more malevolent ones.
Wouldn't this really depend on who you are, the nature of your relationship, and who the spirit is?
I think we can all agree that pagan deities are far more powerful than we are, but to use an analogy utilized earlier in this thread, this is not that different from maintaining a relationship with a powerful human being.

The best place to look at for these sort of interactions are places like Thailand, Cambodia, Laos, etc. How many staunch Buddhists in these countries worship Brahma, Durga, Shiva, etc.? How many shrines of these deities are presided over by Buddhist monks?

User avatar
Karma Dorje
Posts: 1354
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 10:35 pm

Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings

Post by Karma Dorje » Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:27 pm

We humans seem to be a lot more fascinated with criticizing the religious decisions of others than making our own real.

This criticism is really just a form of elevating ourselves and diminishing others. As we know that this is directly contrary to the Mahayana teachings, shouldn't we be more concerned with our own self-grasping than what other sentient beings choose?
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava

CicadaCanto
Posts: 52
Joined: Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:41 pm

Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings

Post by CicadaCanto » Mon Jan 22, 2018 4:45 am

Karma Dorje wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:27 pm
We humans seem to be a lot more fascinated with criticizing the religious decisions of others than making our own real.

This criticism is really just a form of elevating ourselves and diminishing others. As we know that this is directly contrary to the Mahayana teachings, shouldn't we be more concerned with our own self-grasping than what other sentient beings choose?
:good:

I'm sorry if my OP was taken as criticizing the choices of others. :emb:

There is a context to the question, but it's irrelevant to the specific question I was asking.

aparajita
Posts: 33
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:35 am

Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings

Post by aparajita » Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:16 am

When your dharma siblings go to a doctor or any other specialist, or hang out with a friend who isn't you, do you tell them, "But ... but ... but ... he's not the Buddha!"? :stirthepot: :tongue:

CicadaCanto
Posts: 52
Joined: Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:41 pm

Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings

Post by CicadaCanto » Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:48 pm

aparajita wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 10:16 am
When your dharma siblings go to a doctor or any other specialist, or hang out with a friend who isn't you, do you tell them, "But ... but ... but ... he's not the Buddha!"? :stirthepot: :tongue:
Actually if you look at my OP:
Q: I have dharma siblings engaged in occult activities. Specifically the propitiation of pagan deities and gods. Whatever consequences to their own private dharma practice aside--

-- are there negative impacts for those close to them as dharma siblings? for the communities that we share?

Q': If there are negative impacts, are there methods of mitigating this?
* I make no ethical evaluation of their activity
* I make no mention of wanting to compel them to stop
* I don't question their refuge
* I don't question their samaya

The question was simply if it is possible that there are consequences to others.

Post Reply

Return to “Tibetan Buddhism”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Gatinho, Gegpa, heart and 49 guests