Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings

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Varis
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Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings

Post by Varis » Wed Jan 24, 2018 12:03 am

I think it'd be best to ask your teacher. I'd assume they're aware of what's going on.

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings

Post by PuerAzaelis » Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:39 am

I’d be more worried about their frivolity than anything else.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Simon E.
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Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings

Post by Simon E. » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:05 pm

Karma Dorje wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:27 pm
We humans seem to be a lot more fascinated with criticizing the religious decisions of others than making our own real.

This criticism is really just a form of elevating ourselves and diminishing others. As we know that this is directly contrary to the Mahayana teachings, shouldn't we be more concerned with our own self-grasping than what other sentient beings choose?
:good:

So obviously the case that I find it extraordinary that it needs saying again and again and is ignored again and again.
Of course, the excuse is always the same " ' insert name of topic' is REALLY important and it is essential that we clash and state our subjective opinions because mine are important and the Dharma needs me to say it or else great harm will befall the planet".
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Aryjna
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Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings

Post by Aryjna » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:20 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:05 pm
Karma Dorje wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:27 pm
We humans seem to be a lot more fascinated with criticizing the religious decisions of others than making our own real.

This criticism is really just a form of elevating ourselves and diminishing others. As we know that this is directly contrary to the Mahayana teachings, shouldn't we be more concerned with our own self-grasping than what other sentient beings choose?
:good:

So obviously the case that I find it extraordinary that it needs saying again and again and is ignored again and again.
Of course, the excuse is always the same " ' insert name of topic' is REALLY important and it is essential that we clash and state our subjective opinions because mine are important and the Dharma needs me to say it or else great harm will befall the planet".
The ironic thing is that these posts are also criticizing others, and in a way others' religious decisions. In this case, it is criticizing what you consider to be others' misplaced self-righteous religious indignation.

Simon E.
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Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings

Post by Simon E. » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:46 pm

So you are saying that posting to DW is a 'religious' decision?

Well I guess in one sense everything is a religious decision.
I suppose only we know our own intentions when all is said and done.

It does, however, seem to me that the degree of righteous indignation (which is not a feature of THIS thread) is in inverse proportion to the degree that upeksha is a feature of any given post.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Karma Dorje
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Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings

Post by Karma Dorje » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:53 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:20 pm
The ironic thing is that these posts are also criticizing others, and in a way others' religious decisions. In this case, it is criticizing what you consider to be others' misplaced self-righteous religious indignation.
Is there ever properly placed self-righteous indignation?

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"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava

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Aryjna
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Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings

Post by Aryjna » Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:17 pm

What I mean is that I don't think the question of this thread is meant as a criticism of others. It seems a worthwhile question to answer, and no one who actually has a clear answer has replied so far, unless I missed it.

If what they are doing is a problem, then maybe it can be easily resolved.

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Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings

Post by Simon E. » Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:24 pm

A pretty grey area in all honesty. I dont see how the OP's concern would be different if it was about Bon practices for example.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Aryjna
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Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings

Post by Aryjna » Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:31 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:24 pm
A pretty grey area in all honesty. I dont see how the OP's concern would be different if it was about Bon practices for example.
It is generally considered that if someone breaks their samaya this has a negative impact on the vajra master and the other practitioners, though I don't remember seeing any specific quotes on that, and in this case perhaps there is no relationship of this kind. If this is true then there is a problem.

If there is no vajra relationship, then maybe there is no specific problem, but maybe there is one along the same lines but of much smaller importance. I would be interested in seeing some relevant quotes on the matter.

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Karma Dorje
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Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings

Post by Karma Dorje » Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:42 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:31 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:24 pm
A pretty grey area in all honesty. I dont see how the OP's concern would be different if it was about Bon practices for example.
It is generally considered that if someone breaks their samaya this has a negative impact on the vajra master and the other practitioners, though I don't remember seeing any specific quotes on that, and in this case perhaps there is no relationship of this kind. If this is true then there is a problem.

If there is no vajra relationship, then maybe there is no specific problem, but maybe there is one along the same lines but of much smaller importance. I would be interested in seeing some relevant quotes on the matter.
Not seeing one's fellow students with pure view is itself breaking samaya. Vajra masters don't need us to defend them or police our vajra brothers and sisters for samaya violations. If this is such a clear and present danger to the Dharma, why do we not hear the great masters of our traditions condemning the "heresies"?
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava

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Aryjna
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Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings

Post by Aryjna » Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:52 pm

Karma Dorje wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:42 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:31 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:24 pm
A pretty grey area in all honesty. I dont see how the OP's concern would be different if it was about Bon practices for example.
It is generally considered that if someone breaks their samaya this has a negative impact on the vajra master and the other practitioners, though I don't remember seeing any specific quotes on that, and in this case perhaps there is no relationship of this kind. If this is true then there is a problem.

If there is no vajra relationship, then maybe there is no specific problem, but maybe there is one along the same lines but of much smaller importance. I would be interested in seeing some relevant quotes on the matter.
Not seeing one's fellow students with pure view is itself breaking samaya. Vajra masters don't need us to defend them or police our vajra brothers and sisters for samaya violations. If this is such a clear and present danger to the Dharma, why do we not hear the great masters of our traditions condemning the "heresies"?
The question is if it is a problem or not. I don't think anyone said it is a clear danger.

Personally I have not been to too many dharma centers and haven't heard something like this before. I doubt it is common. Sounds more ridiculous than dangerous, but it does not sound good either.

As far as I know pointing out mistakes in a kind way is not breaking samaya.

Varis
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Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings

Post by Varis » Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:46 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:31 pm
It is generally considered that if someone breaks their samaya this has a negative impact on the vajra master and the other practitioners, though I don't remember seeing any specific quotes on that, and in this case perhaps there is no relationship of this kind. If this is true then there is a problem.
You're jumping to conclusions without sufficient evidence.
If they're taking refuge in those dieties, sure, they'd be breaking mahayana vows at the very least. But nowhere in OP's posts does it state so, it says propriating which is a big difference. This is a matter for their guru to worry about.

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Aryjna
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Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings

Post by Aryjna » Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:29 pm

Varis wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:46 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:31 pm
It is generally considered that if someone breaks their samaya this has a negative impact on the vajra master and the other practitioners, though I don't remember seeing any specific quotes on that, and in this case perhaps there is no relationship of this kind. If this is true then there is a problem.
You're jumping to conclusions without sufficient evidence.
If they're taking refuge in those dieties, sure, they'd be breaking mahayana vows at the very least. But nowhere in OP's posts does it state so, it says propriating which is a big difference. This is a matter for their guru to worry about.
That should be clarified by the OP, but the question is still valid in general.

Are there any examples you have in mind about how one can be 'propitiating deities' with a motivation that does not constitute in part taking refuge in them? Excluding offerings to spirits etc. as a part of a more general practice, which is clearly irrelevant here.

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Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:45 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:29 pm
That should be clarified by the OP, but the question is still valid in general.

Are there any examples you have in mind about how one can be 'propitiating deities' with a motivation that does not constitute in part taking refuge in them? Excluding offerings to spirits etc. as a part of a more general practice, which is clearly irrelevant here.
viewtopic.php?f=40&t=27627#p429909
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Aryjna
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Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings

Post by Aryjna » Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:03 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:45 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:29 pm
That should be clarified by the OP, but the question is still valid in general.

Are there any examples you have in mind about how one can be 'propitiating deities' with a motivation that does not constitute in part taking refuge in them? Excluding offerings to spirits etc. as a part of a more general practice, which is clearly irrelevant here.
viewtopic.php?f=40&t=27627#p429909
I meant that with the exception of offerings to spirits as part of practice, propitiating a deity in almost every case includes taking refuge in it in one way or another.

Varis
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Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings

Post by Varis » Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:36 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:29 pm
Are there any examples you have in mind about how one can be 'propitiating deities' with a motivation that does not constitute in part taking refuge in them? Excluding offerings to spirits etc. as a part of a more general practice, which is clearly irrelevant here.
The definition of propitiating is to gain the favor of someone or something. This is done through offerings.
You're confusing taking refuge in a deity as a path to liberation with propriation.

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Aryjna
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Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings

Post by Aryjna » Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:49 pm

Varis wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:36 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:29 pm
Are there any examples you have in mind about how one can be 'propitiating deities' with a motivation that does not constitute in part taking refuge in them? Excluding offerings to spirits etc. as a part of a more general practice, which is clearly irrelevant here.
The definition of propitiating is to gain the favor of someone or something. This is done through offerings.
You're confusing taking refuge in a deity as a path to liberation with propriation.
You are confusing refuge with a path to liberation. Seeking someone's favor for protection, material gain, help with your problems, etc., is taking refuge in them.

Varis
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Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings

Post by Varis » Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:52 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:49 pm
You are confusing refuge with a path to liberation. Seeking someone's favor for protection, material gain, help with your problems, etc., is taking refuge in them.
So you take refuge in doctors, the police, etc. etc.?

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Sonam Wangchug
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Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:56 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:49 pm
Varis wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:36 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:29 pm
Are there any examples you have in mind about how one can be 'propitiating deities' with a motivation that does not constitute in part taking refuge in them? Excluding offerings to spirits etc. as a part of a more general practice, which is clearly irrelevant here.
The definition of propitiating is to gain the favor of someone or something. This is done through offerings.
You're confusing taking refuge in a deity as a path to liberation with propriation.
You are confusing refuge with a path to liberation. Seeking someone's favor for protection, material gain, help with your problems, etc., is taking refuge in them.
So have you never accepted help or favors from any humans?

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Aryjna
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Re: Pagan Deity Propitiation by Dharma Siblings

Post by Aryjna » Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:58 pm

Varis wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:52 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:49 pm
You are confusing refuge with a path to liberation. Seeking someone's favor for protection, material gain, help with your problems, etc., is taking refuge in them.
So I take refuge in doctors, the police, etc. etc.?
In a way, yes. But the problem is with taking refuge in worldly deities, not with seeing a doctor if you are ill.

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