Question about removing christian/etc. baptism

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PeterC
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Re: Question about removing christian/etc. baptism

Post by PeterC » Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:04 am

From a Buddhist perspective there is nothing to remove.

From a catholic perspective it can never be removed.

Take your pick

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Question about removing christian/etc. baptism

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:30 am

PeterC wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:04 am
From a Buddhist perspective there is nothing to remove.

From a catholic perspective it can never be removed.

Take your pick
I understand, but i'm not on philosophycal/theoretical presumtions.

Btw guys, is not the name "baptism" my business on this, but the bound made to this deva...
Identities are false and not true

PeterC
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Re: Question about removing christian/etc. baptism

Post by PeterC » Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:33 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:30 am
PeterC wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:04 am
From a Buddhist perspective there is nothing to remove.

From a catholic perspective it can never be removed.

Take your pick
I understand, but i'm not on philosophycal/theoretical presumtions.

Btw guys, is not the name "baptism" my business on this, but the bound made to this deva...
Sorry, I was being cryptic. My point was that accepting the Buddhist perspective is the removal. Similar to the zen story of the two monks and the old woman by the river.

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Kilaya.
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Re: Question about removing christian/etc. baptism

Post by Kilaya. » Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:09 am

Perhaps right now, at this very moment the following post is being written on a Korean Christian forum:

"Oh, please, help me, my friends, when I was young my parents took me to a Buddhist temple to take refuge in front of those satanic idols, how do I remove that??? I want to be a good Christian!!!"
Look at those charlatans, madly engaged
in fervent argument.
- Milarepa

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Aryjna
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Re: Question about removing christian/etc. baptism

Post by Aryjna » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:34 am

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:30 am
PeterC wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:04 am
From a Buddhist perspective there is nothing to remove.

From a catholic perspective it can never be removed.

Take your pick
I understand, but i'm not on philosophycal/theoretical presumtions.

Btw guys, is not the name "baptism" my business on this, but the bound made to this deva...
Everyone has infinite bonds with other beings. They cannot be removed through some ceremony as far as I know.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/a ... s2c1a1.htm

Miroku
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Re: Question about removing christian/etc. baptism

Post by Miroku » Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:21 pm

Ah, don't worry that much. If you want to, read the thread about Aro that is there at the moment. That messed with my worldview a bit and made me think a bit.
But hey, trust refuge. Refuge is supposed to chase away demons and etc. (story in Words of my prefect teacher). So why shouldn't it be enough to keep you away from one deva (or gyalpo).
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

Tiago Simões
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Re: Question about removing christian/etc. baptism

Post by Tiago Simões » Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:45 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:30 am
Btw guys, is not the name "baptism" my business on this, but the bound made to this deva...
Unless you were baptised as an adult, you made no conscious bound to any deva, so don't worry... And even if you did, you owe nothing to him.
Then, the Licchavi Vimalakīrti spoke to the elder Śāriputra and the great disciples: “Reverends, eat of the food of the Tathāgata! It is ambrosia perfumed by the great compassion. But do not fix your minds in narrow-minded attitudes, lest you be unable to receive its gift.”

- Chapter 9, The Feast Brought by the Emanated Incarnation
The Noble Mahāyāna Sūtra “The Teaching of Vimalakīrti”

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seeker242
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Re: Question about removing christian/etc. baptism

Post by seeker242 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:14 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:44 am
DGA wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:36 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:08 am
I mean to remove this "empowerment", if you forgive me the expression.
Stop believing in the power of baptism and it will have no power of you.
Not that simple
I find it to be just that simple. I was baptized and it has no power over me and I didn't need to do anything in particular to "remove it". :smile: Baptism is just irrelevant, it doesn't mean anything.

Actually, it means you have the "seal of God", but God doesn't exist so that doesn't matter. And it means you have original sin removed, but there is no original sin either, so that doesn't matter either!
One should not kill any living being, nor cause it to be killed, nor should one incite any other to kill. Do never injure any being, whether strong or weak, in this entire universe!

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liuzg150181
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Re: Question about removing christian/etc. baptism

Post by liuzg150181 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:55 pm

Meditate on emptiness? :shrug:

Jeff H
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Re: Question about removing christian/etc. baptism

Post by Jeff H » Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:56 pm

I was baptized as an infant, left the church, then returned in adulthood and very intentionally renewed my baptism with confirmation. But then I was introduced to Buddhism.

In Buddhism we recognize an infinite number of unwholesome bonds. We call them attachments. They do not arise through ceremonial ritual and they are not overcome by ritual. They are overcome with right view, right thought, and right action.

Like a child who is terrified by unseen monsters at night, when the child matures enough to realize the monsters are products of its own mind, the monsters are quietly dispelled.

As I see it now, the One God, like all beings, arises interdependently but without substantial existence. Yes, there are unseen beings, and yes you were offered up to this God, but the power of any being over you and the reality of this God are entirely matters of your belief in them, not an inescapable magical enchantment that requires counter-magic.
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Question about removing christian/etc. baptism

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:40 pm

Miroku wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:21 pm
Ah, don't worry that much. If you want to, read the thread about Aro that is there at the moment. That messed with my worldview a bit and made me think a bit.
But hey, trust refuge. Refuge is supposed to chase away demons and etc. (story in Words of my prefect teacher). So why shouldn't it be enough to keep you away from one deva (or gyalpo).
Oh, one ocupation at the time.
So it seems, refuge in the three jewells is enough.

I want to thank you all. I had my reasons on asking.
Identities are false and not true

philji
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Re: Question about removing christian/etc. baptism

Post by philji » Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:36 pm

You cannot unbaptise..your stuck with it...... now look at your mind. 😜

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Question about removing christian/etc. baptism

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:18 pm

philji wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:36 pm
You cannot unbaptise..your stuck with it...... now look at your mind. 😜
I found a way 😎
Identities are false and not true

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Mantrik
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Re: Question about removing christian/etc. baptism

Post by Mantrik » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:27 pm

This question has arisen here in the UK. Baptism is involuntary when carried out on a baby.

I believe the remedy chosen by some was to physically hand back their baptism in the form of a document rejecting what was done to them without their consent.

The Christian Chirch of course will not accept such a document.

One thing I did was to change my name, choose my own. In the UK you can simply do this, and it is legal, but institutions like to see a piece of paper 'proving' that you have changed your name.

So you can reject your baptism formally, on paper, and change your 'given name' as well. ;)
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Question about removing christian/etc. baptism

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:58 pm

My name is ok, and i love my parents, i think a change of name would be disrespectful also.

🙏
Identities are false and not true

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Mantrik
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Re: Question about removing christian/etc. baptism

Post by Mantrik » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:17 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:58 pm
My name is ok, and i love my parents, i think a change of name would be disrespectful also.

🙏
That was not my main point, which was that if you wished to reject your baptism in some way, you could formally return it to the Church. They may not accept that, but you can.

In Buddhism a person can hand back the vows they took. Christianity is incredibly arrogant in assuming you have no rights to return your baptism, and deserves to be challenged.

As a child you do not consent to the baptism process, so as an adult you can choose to accept or reject it.
Last edited by Mantrik on Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

Lhasa
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Re: Question about removing christian/etc. baptism

Post by Lhasa » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:35 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:18 pm
philji wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:36 pm
You cannot unbaptise..your stuck with it...... now look at your mind. 😜
I found a way 😎
Would you like to share?

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Question about removing christian/etc. baptism

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:05 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:17 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:58 pm
My name is ok, and i love my parents, i think a change of name would be disrespectful also.

🙏
That was not my main point. MY point was that if you wished to reject your baptism in some way, you could formally return it to the Church. They may not accept that, but you can.

In Buddhism a person can hand back the vows they took. Christianity is incredibly arrogant in assuming you have no rights to return your baptism, and deserves to be challenged.

As a child you do not consent to the baptism process, so as an adult you can choose to accept or reject it.
Oh, i see
Lhasa wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:35 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:18 pm
philji wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:36 pm
You cannot unbaptise..your stuck with it...... now look at your mind. 😜
I found a way 😎
Would you like to share?
Since one reason why i ask is a shitro nyam, seems to be that shitro can do because baptism is a samsaric relation, is in terms of karma, so i can purify that.
Identities are false and not true

krodha
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Re: Question about removing christian/etc. baptism

Post by krodha » Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:16 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:30 am
Btw guys, is not the name "baptism" my business on this, but the bound made to this deva...
Even the presumption that the religion in question is connected to some sort of deva is lending a bit too much credibility in their direction, in my opinion.

I was baptized as a child and attended Sunday school before a series of instances such as the church giving my younger brother wine at communion causing him to barf all over the sanctuary area and then trying to take away his most loved and favorite teddy bear in order to donate it because "Jesus died for our sins." Unreal. My mother decided enough was enough and we never went back.

I couldn't give a shit if I was baptized or not, you really shouldn't either. It means less than nothing. My son is being raised without religion, and can decide when he's older if he wants to follow one. Hopefully he has the karma for the buddhadharma, we discuss it here and there but I don't push it on him and refuse to condition him.

Baptism is a meaningless representation of allegiance to a false system of belief.

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Grigoris
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Re: Question about removing christian/etc. baptism

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:02 am

krodha wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:16 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:30 am
Btw guys, is not the name "baptism" my business on this, but the bound made to this deva...
Even the presumption that the religion in question is connected to some sort of deva is lending a bit too much credibility in their direction, in my opinion.

I was baptized as a child and attended Sunday school before a series of instances such as the church giving my younger brother wine at communion causing him to barf all over the sanctuary area and then trying to take away his most loved and favorite teddy bear in order to donate it because "Jesus died for our sins." Unreal. My mother decided enough was enough and we never went back.

I couldn't give a shit if I was baptized or not, you really shouldn't either. It means less than nothing. My son is being raised without religion, and can decide when he's older if he wants to follow one. Hopefully he has the karma for the buddhadharma, we discuss it here and there but I don't push it on him and refuse to condition him.

Baptism is a meaningless representation of allegiance to a false system of belief.
That is why I like the ritual of confirmation in the Catholic church. Though I believe that it should take place at a later age as kids (in the West) seem to mature much later in life than 12-13 (unlike in the past when they would already be working and preparing to get married).
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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