Question about removing christian/etc. baptism

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Mantrik
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Re: Question about removing christian/etc. baptism

Post by Mantrik » Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:35 am

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:02 am
krodha wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:16 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:30 am
Btw guys, is not the name "baptism" my business on this, but the bound made to this deva...
Even the presumption that the religion in question is connected to some sort of deva is lending a bit too much credibility in their direction, in my opinion.

I was baptized as a child and attended Sunday school before a series of instances such as the church giving my younger brother wine at communion causing him to barf all over the sanctuary area and then trying to take away his most loved and favorite teddy bear in order to donate it because "Jesus died for our sins." Unreal. My mother decided enough was enough and we never went back.

I couldn't give a shit if I was baptized or not, you really shouldn't either. It means less than nothing. My son is being raised without religion, and can decide when he's older if he wants to follow one. Hopefully he has the karma for the buddhadharma, we discuss it here and there but I don't push it on him and refuse to condition him.

Baptism is a meaningless representation of allegiance to a false system of belief.
That is why I like the ritual of confirmation in the Catholic church. Though I believe that it should take place at a later age as kids (in the West) seem to mature much later in life than 12-13 (unlike in the past when they would already be working and preparing to get married).
Confirmation is also present in Protestant churches.

There should be a legal 'rejection' (gentler term 'non-confirmation') option as well. It is disgraceful that people are baptised at all without their consent. I was told it was done because of the high risk of infant mortality so your dead baby goes straight to heaven. But I don't think any church accepts a formal rejection of it. People have done it though, formally, much to the consternation of the clerics.

There are even free online sites where you can create a formal piece of paper:
http://unbaptism.org/
http://www.khyung.com

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Wayfarer
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Re: Question about removing christian/etc. baptism

Post by Wayfarer » Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:51 am

Hello all, the question is ¿is there a specific way to remove christian/catholic/etc baptism? I mean removing this in fact, not in an administrative way.
All you have to do is stop believing in it. Same as when you do believe in it, but in the opposite direction.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki-roshi

WeiHan
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Re: Question about removing christian/etc. baptism

Post by WeiHan » Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:25 am

I don't think it is nice to express it in an extreme manner. In Asia, some churches encourage new converts to smash and destroy images of representation of their former religions. Some even go further as to publicise it. I don't think we buddhist want to act in this manner and hurt people feeling.

I do not know the deep meaning of baptism in christian religion. However, there are evidence that once you stop believing in Yahweh, his heaven will be shut out from you. he won't even allow you to take a look inside assuming that somehow you manage to reach its gate with whatever accidental reason.

Medicine Buddha has a specific vow to help believers away from non mayahana buddhist path. maybe praying to him with help.

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Carlita
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Re: Question about removing christian/etc. baptism

Post by Carlita » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:06 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:12 am
Hello all, the question is ¿is there a specific way to remove christian/catholic/etc baptism? I mean removing this in fact, not in an administrative way.

This is a personal choice, not a sectarian determination.

I searched a bit if there was the question already, but couldn't find it.

Best regards.
Do you mean return your sacramental vows? If so, youd have to go to your parish where they baptized you (I think or any church) and fill out paper work to debaptize you. Once you do that, you cant take the sacraments anymore. This is the States but Im sure its the same just I dont know about the opposition based on area.
[The Buddha says to his monks], when he opens his mouth to expound or when he reads the sutra, he should not delight in speaking of the faults of other people or scriptures. He should not display contempt for other teachers of the Law or speak of the good or bad, the strong or weak points of others. -Saddharma Puṇḍarīka Sūtra
:anjali:

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Carlita
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Re: Question about removing christian/etc. baptism

Post by Carlita » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:18 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:12 am
Hello all, the question is ¿is there a specific way to remove christian/catholic/etc baptism? I mean removing this in fact, not in an administrative way.

This is a personal choice, not a sectarian determination.

I searched a bit if there was the question already, but couldn't find it.

Best regards.
Here is some information

http://www.catholicdoors.com/faq/qu286.htm
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/ponti ... is_en.html
http://www.catholicdoors.com/faq/qu286.htm
www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage_prin ... anguage=en
[The Buddha says to his monks], when he opens his mouth to expound or when he reads the sutra, he should not delight in speaking of the faults of other people or scriptures. He should not display contempt for other teachers of the Law or speak of the good or bad, the strong or weak points of others. -Saddharma Puṇḍarīka Sūtra
:anjali:

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Question about removing christian/etc. baptism

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:46 pm

Carlita wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:06 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:12 am
Hello all, the question is ¿is there a specific way to remove christian/catholic/etc baptism? I mean removing this in fact, not in an administrative way.

This is a personal choice, not a sectarian determination.

I searched a bit if there was the question already, but couldn't find it.

Best regards.
Do you mean return your sacramental vows? If so, youd have to go to your parish where they baptized you (I think or any church) and fill out paper work to debaptize you. Once you do that, you cant take the sacraments anymore. This is the States but Im sure its the same just I dont know about the opposition based on area.
No, i was talking about the christian mark, "empowerment", "initiation", (don't know how to call it but baptism), not to the papers related to it, which is something very different.

But it's within the limits of karma, so it can be removed through purification. :)
"Emptiness" without compassion is not real emptiness.
"Compassion" without emptiness is not real compassion.

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Re: Question about removing christian/etc. baptism

Post by WeiHan » Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:13 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:46 pm

No, i was talking about the christian mark, "empowerment", "initiation", (don't know how to call it but baptism), not to the papers related to it, which is something very different.

But it's within the limits of karma, so it can be removed through purification. :)
It is not a negative karma, so how are you going to purify it?

Kind of a karmic connection which cannot be removed.

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Malcolm
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Re: Question about removing christian/etc. baptism

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:21 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:46 pm
Carlita wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:06 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:12 am
Hello all, the question is ¿is there a specific way to remove christian/catholic/etc baptism? I mean removing this in fact, not in an administrative way.

This is a personal choice, not a sectarian determination.

I searched a bit if there was the question already, but couldn't find it.

Best regards.
Do you mean return your sacramental vows? If so, youd have to go to your parish where they baptized you (I think or any church) and fill out paper work to debaptize you. Once you do that, you cant take the sacraments anymore. This is the States but Im sure its the same just I dont know about the opposition based on area.
No, i was talking about the christian mark, "empowerment", "initiation", (don't know how to call it but baptism), not to the papers related to it, which is something very different.

But it's within the limits of karma, so it can be removed through purification. :)
Assuming you were not baptized according to your own will, it will leave no karmic imprint. There is no magic juju or contamination left over from being baptized. It is just an empty rite with no meaning, other than to Christians.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Jeff H
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Re: Question about removing christian/etc. baptism

Post by Jeff H » Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:31 pm

Carlita wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:18 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:12 am
Hello all, the question is ¿is there a specific way to remove christian/catholic/etc baptism? I mean removing this in fact, not in an administrative way.

This is a personal choice, not a sectarian determination.

I searched a bit if there was the question already, but couldn't find it.

Best regards.
Here is some information

http://www.catholicdoors.com/faq/qu286.htm
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/ponti ... is_en.html
http://www.catholicdoors.com/faq/qu286.htm
www.ewtn.com/v/experts/showmessage_prin ... anguage=en
I agree with Javier that in the end it's all karma, but even if it can't be purified, it has already ripened and been completed (the act of being baptized, that is). The church claims to be speaking on behalf of a god as creator/judge, who needs a sign (ritual baptism) from ordinary beings to remove original sin. If you believe in dependent origination and the impossibility of a first cause like God, and if you believe that you can create the karmic causes for your own liberation, then what does it matter what the church thinks is going on here? If you don't believe in those things and do believe that God and the church have power over you by virtue of that rite, then they do and that is the thing you need to deal with. It's not about a legal contract. It's about what's in your heart.

But I found Carlita's research very interesting. I read the Vatican's Actus Formalis and found these two bits particularly juicy:
the Pontifical Council For Legislative Texts wrote:2. The substance of the act of the will must be the rupture of those bonds of communion – faith, sacraments, and pastoral governance – that permit the Faithful to receive the life of grace within the Church. This means that the formal act of defection must have more than a juridical-administrative character (the removal of one’s name from a Church membership registry maintained by the government in order to produce certain civil consequences), but be configured as a true separation from the constitutive elements of the life of the Church: it supposes, therefore, an act of apostasy, heresy or schism [the emphasis is theirs].

7. It remains clear, in any event, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an ontological and permanent bond which is not lost by reason of any act or fact of defection.
I find that fascinating. If I’m not mistaken, the required “internal act” must constitute apostasy, heresy, or schism. So it sounds like, “you can’t quit, we fire you!” But then the conclusion in paragraph 7 is, “it doesn’t matter anyway, you're still ours. Suck it up!”

As a former (in my opinion) Episcopalian, I did a quick google search about renouncing Episcopalian baptism. Everything on the first page of results concerned receiving or bestowing the baptism rite, except this one from 2009 about the Church of England: Atheist nurse tries to get himself 'de-baptised' from Church of England. It’s a pretty interesting (and not long) article which included this great picture:


baby_baptism_1368526c.jpg
baby_baptism_1368526c.jpg (14.14 KiB) Viewed 344 times
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

WeiHan
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Re: Question about removing christian/etc. baptism

Post by WeiHan » Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:58 pm

If javier is talking about diluting that karmic link, then of course, acts like stop believing in it will help in the dilution. If a debaptisation ceremony or paper works exist, the act of going through that itself will dilute the karmic link too. Writing your resolve down is an act that will dilute the karmic link too etc...every act that goes against it will have a diluting effect.

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Re: Question about removing christian/etc. baptism

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:30 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:21 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:46 pm
Carlita wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:06 pm


Do you mean return your sacramental vows? If so, youd have to go to your parish where they baptized you (I think or any church) and fill out paper work to debaptize you. Once you do that, you cant take the sacraments anymore. This is the States but Im sure its the same just I dont know about the opposition based on area.
No, i was talking about the christian mark, "empowerment", "initiation", (don't know how to call it but baptism), not to the papers related to it, which is something very different.

But it's within the limits of karma, so it can be removed through purification. :)
Assuming you were not baptized according to your own will, it will leave no karmic imprint. There is no magic juju or contamination left over from being baptized. It is just an empty rite with no meaning, other than to Christians.
I would not underestimate mundane powerful beings. Also i took a catequesis thing in my youth, for making my parents relief haha i used to scape and argue but ok i did it.. naturally no parent want's their child in hell. But today there is no worry.

And pecisely on thoughts: somethimes in "deep inspection" i surprise myself sustaining ethernalist thougths and acting accordingly, and i linked this to this root: baptism.

Why? Strange thing, every one around me in this society are ethernalists, every thing is done with that point of view... Baptism rites reinforces the idea. So, thinking "it has no value" is not enough, i see, for me surgery is needed hahaha so i'm doing shitro for removing any trace.
"Emptiness" without compassion is not real emptiness.
"Compassion" without emptiness is not real compassion.

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Re: Question about removing christian/etc. baptism

Post by Jeff H » Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:55 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:30 pm
... But today there is no worry.

And pecisely on thoughts: somethimes in "deep inspection" i surprise myself sustaining ethernalist thougths and acting accordingly, and i linked this to this root: baptism.

Why? Strange thing, every one around me in this society are ethernalists, every thing is done with that point of view... Baptism rites reinforces the idea. So, thinking "it has no value" is not enough, i see, for me surgery is needed hahaha so i'm doing shitro for removing any trace.
For what it's worth, this sounds to me like you are doing exactly what you need to do. May your efforts be met with success :meditate: .
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

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Re: Question about removing christian/etc. baptism

Post by Harimoo » Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:26 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:21 pm
Assuming you were not baptized according to your own will, it will leave no karmic imprint. There is no magic juju or contamination left over from being baptized. It is just an empty rite with no meaning, other than to Christians.
I am not sure of this : one of my late lama could diffentiate between the disciples who were baptized and who weren't (without asking of course).

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Re: Question about removing christian/etc. baptism

Post by Fortyeightvows » Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:31 am

WeiHan wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:13 pm
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:46 pm

No, i was talking about the christian mark, "empowerment", "initiation", (don't know how to call it but baptism), not to the papers related to it, which is something very different.

But it's within the limits of karma, so it can be removed through purification. :)
It is not a negative karma, so how are you going to purify it?

Kind of a karmic connection which cannot be removed.
I think maybe the issue is that by being baptised (which is really like an abhisheka and even involves water on the head) may connect one with the deity that they don't have devotion to, or that it will lead them to be likely reborn into that deity's heaven (not a bad place I think) or as a human following that religion.
WeiHan wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:58 pm
If javier is talking about diluting that karmic link, then of course, acts like stop believing in it will help in the dilution. If a debaptisation ceremony or paper works exist, the act of going through that itself will dilute the karmic link too. Writing your resolve down is an act that will dilute the karmic link too etc...every act that goes against it will have a diluting effect.
I think that is what is being asked about to dilute the karmic link. The only reasons I can think of to want to dilute the karmic link between a person and this deity are to avoid being brought into his heaven or to be reborn as a follower. but neither of those seem too bad at all.
But I think you are on to something with the writing it down. You know how some sects will write your name and burn to register you. You could do a similar thing and petition to have your name removed from the register. (Not that I'd ever recommend such a thing)

I've never been baptised but I went to a catholic church recently and it made me want to be, but there is alot of classes and things that they want you to do and I really don't have the time.

This has been a very interesting thread to read!

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Re: Question about removing christian/etc. baptism

Post by Fortyeightvows » Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:46 am

Jeff H wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:56 pm
Yes, there are unseen beings, and yes you were offered up to this God, but the power of any being over you and the reality of this God are entirely matters of your belief in them, not an inescapable magical enchantment that requires counter-magic.
By that logic a thief or a snake can't harm you if you don't believe in them.
Mantrik wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:27 pm
One thing I did was to change my name, choose my own. In the UK you can simply do this, and it is legal, but institutions like to see a piece of paper 'proving' that you have changed your name.

So you can reject your baptism formally, on paper, and change your 'given name' as well. ;)
Changing your name sounds like a terrible idea for so many reasons!
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:58 pm
My name is ok, and i love my parents, i think a change of name would be disrespectful also.
Good, that's the right attitude!
Wayfarer wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:51 am
All you have to do is stop believing in it. Same as when you do believe in it, but in the opposite direction.
Sounds true
philji wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:36 pm
You cannot unbaptise..your stuck with it...... now look at your mind. 😜
:good: There is so much wisdom in this! It sounds like what an enlightened master would say...are you an enlightened master philji ? :yinyang:
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:21 pm
Assuming you were not baptized according to your own will, it will leave no karmic imprint. There is no magic juju or contamination left over from being baptized. It is just an empty rite with no meaning, other than to Christians
I would think that would depend on who was doing the baptism.
Harimoo wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:26 pm
one of my late lama could diffentiate between the disciples who were baptized and who weren't (without asking of course).
Interesting, I recently went to see a medium and he immediately knew that I was involved in tibetan buddhism. When I told my teacher about it later, he said that it is because when a person takes vows it like changes their aura or that there was a subtle substance or something like that.

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Re: Question about removing christian/etc. baptism

Post by amanitamusc » Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:51 am

Fortyeightvows
Interesting, I recently went to see a medium and he immediately knew that I was involved in tibetan buddhism. When I told my teacher about it later, he said that it is because when a person takes vows it like changes their aura or that there was a subtle substance or something like that.
[/quote]

It could have been the Dalai Lama tshirt?

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Mantrik
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Re: Question about removing christian/etc. baptism

Post by Mantrik » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:56 am

Fortyeightvows wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:46 am
Mantrik wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:27 pm
One thing I did was to change my name, choose my own. In the UK you can simply do this, and it is legal, but institutions like to see a piece of paper 'proving' that you have changed your name.

So you can reject your baptism formally, on paper, and change your 'given name' as well. ;)
Changing your name sounds like a terrible idea for so many reasons!
Really? So many assumptions in your statement.
People change their names on ordination, for example.........a terrible idea?

It seems to me that in the UK Christianity is rarely a matter of serious devotion. People go to weddings, baptisms and funerals, some at Xmas, fewer still for other services.
Baptism is rarely anything followed up as a real commitment through 'confirmation'. I know of not one 'Godparent' who has ever made any effort at all to guide a child in the Christian path, and I know a lot of Godparents.

Naming? Well, my mother couldn't think of a girl's name and just called my sister after the nearest maternity nurse, I was given my father's and hated it, and my wife was named after a film character her mother liked (turned out the character was actually a prostitite! lol :) ).

One funny example:
I once knew a kid whose mother had a series of menfolk. She called her boy Wayne. She then named him after his 'new dad' and he became 'Wayne King'. Kids at the schools delighted in calling him 'Wanking'. His mother was furious so changed his name to the surname of the next new dad - called Kerr. Even the staff had to be dissuaded form taking the register and asking: 'Is Wanker present?'. Bright kids would reply: 'We thought he was still Wanking'. As an adult he probably changed his name.

So please don't make all manner of assumptions about naming a child and an adult changing it. ;)
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Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Re: Question about removing christian/etc. baptism

Post by Jeff H » Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:45 pm

Fortyeightvows, I think Javier has already resolved his issue and set a sound course of action here.
Fortyeightvows wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:46 am
Jeff H wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 3:56 pm
Yes, there are unseen beings, and yes you were offered up to this God, but the power of any being over you and the reality of this God are entirely matters of your belief in them, not an inescapable magical enchantment that requires counter-magic.
By that logic a thief or a snake can't harm you if you don't believe in them.
For my part, I very much appreciate being shown where I am mistaken, but I do not see the connection between snakes and thieves and my reply to Javier. I think if your logic is correct, then ChNN is mistaken when he says transmission cannot be a passive reception, it requires the full participation of the student*. The logic I’m applying is here:
Jeff H wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:31 pm
If you believe in dependent origination and the impossibility of a first cause like God, and if you believe that you can create the karmic causes for your own liberation, then what does it matter what the church thinks is going on here? If you don't believe in those things and do believe that God and the church have power over you by virtue of that rite, then they do and that is the thing you need to deal with. It's not about a legal contract. It's about what's in your heart.
I do not intend to imply that the inculcation of a deeply seated belief is an easy thing to overcome. And in light of your objection, I guess I have to add that, just as it is not about contracts, it’s not about magical spells cast by members of the church. It's about doing the work of realizing one's own liberation.

I’m also curious how you are distinguishing my position from Wayfarer’s or philji’s:
Fortyeightvows wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:46 am
Wayfarer wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:51 am
All you have to do is stop believing in it. Same as when you do believe in it, but in the opposite direction.
Sounds true
philji wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:36 pm
You cannot unbaptise..your stuck with it...... now look at your mind. 😜
:good: There is so much wisdom in this! It sounds like what an enlightened master would say...are you an enlightened master philji ? :yinyang:
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:21 pm
Assuming you were not baptized according to your own will, it will leave no karmic imprint. There is no magic juju or contamination left over from being baptized. It is just an empty rite with no meaning, other than to Christians
I would think that would depend on who was doing the baptism.
Regarding your reply to Malcolm, who do you think has these magical powers?

*For example in Guru Yoga, p.20
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

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Re: Question about removing christian/etc. baptism

Post by Virgo » Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:03 pm

javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:30 pm

And pecisely on thoughts: somethimes in "deep inspection" i surprise myself sustaining ethernalist thougths and acting accordingly, and i linked this to this root: baptism.
.
Javier, that connection is dubious. Until you are realized, you can continue to have some "eternalistic" notions from time to time, just like other beings.

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Re: Question about removing christian/etc. baptism

Post by KiwiNFLFan » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:37 am

I am a former Catholic.

According to the Catholic church, baptism leaves an indelible mark or 'character' on the soul of the recipient. Confirmation and priestly ordination do so as well. Once one has been baptised in the Catholic church, they are considered to be a Catholic for the rest of their life, even if they stop believing. For example, if a man who has been baptised Catholic then leaves the church and marries a Buddhist in a Buddhist ceremony (without a dispensation), then according to the Catholic church they are not considered to be truly married because a Catholic must marry before a Catholic priest. However, if two Buddhists who have never been baptised marry each other, they are typically considered to be truly married.

However, the moment you cease to believe in any dogma of the Catholic church, you become a heretic and incur automatic excommunication. If you reject the Christian faith completely, then you are an apostate.

Regarding karmic links etc from Christian baptism, I know nothing about that.

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