The straying of new sentient beings

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
User avatar
Sennin
Posts: 665
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:19 am

The straying of new sentient beings

Post by Sennin » Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:56 am

New sentient beings cannot stray into samsara.
But why?
Thus, there is not a single one who has entered into this teaching who fails to attain buddhahood.

marting
Posts: 145
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:37 am

Re: The straying of new sentient beings

Post by marting » Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:01 am

New beings are born every second. Did I miss the memo? :lol:

User avatar
Sennin
Posts: 665
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:19 am

Re: The straying of new sentient beings

Post by Sennin » Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:49 am

marting wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:01 am
New beings are born every second. Did I miss the memo? :lol:
It appears that way but it's not really the case.
Sentient beings occur due to coemergent dimmed awareness / non recognition.
But can new sentient beings come into the process presently?
Thus, there is not a single one who has entered into this teaching who fails to attain buddhahood.

Monlam Tharchin
Posts: 1686
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:11 am

Re: The straying of new sentient beings

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:56 am

No, once one is a buddha there's no going back.
And sentient beings means all sentient beings. They are beginningless, not emergent.
I might be very mistaken but I think that means there are no new sentient beings since one has either already been deluded since beginningless time or one has not and is a buddha.

User avatar
Sennin
Posts: 665
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:19 am

Re: The straying of new sentient beings

Post by Sennin » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:10 am

Monlam Tharchin wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:56 am
No, once one is a buddha there's no going back.
And sentient beings means all sentient beings. They are beginningless, not emergent.
I might be very mistaken but I think that means there are no new sentient beings since one has either already been deluded since beginningless time or one has not and is a buddha.
Thank you. That's what I was trying to figure out. So since time immemorial sentient beings frak up.
Thus, there is not a single one who has entered into this teaching who fails to attain buddhahood.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28243
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: The straying of new sentient beings

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:27 pm

Sennin wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:56 am
New sentient beings cannot stray into samsara.
But why?
There are no "new" sentient beings.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

marting
Posts: 145
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:37 am

Re: The straying of new sentient beings

Post by marting » Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:43 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 4:27 pm
Sennin wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 3:56 am
New sentient beings cannot stray into samsara.
But why?
There are no "new" sentient beings.
Right. I think the problematic parts of the question are in the areas of identity and self-nature. From the relative, where things are really experienced for most of us, there are new combinations of matter, new memories, new personalities, and new experiences arising all the time.

User avatar
Grigoris
Global Moderator
Posts: 17657
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: The straying of new sentient beings

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:40 pm

If you plan on being a Bodhisattva, plan to be around for a REALLY long time. There are infinite sentient beings, that means no matter how many are liberated, there are still an infinite number waiting to be liberated.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28243
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: The straying of new sentient beings

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:56 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:40 pm
If you plan on being a Bodhisattva, plan to be around for a REALLY long time. There are infinite sentient beings, that means no matter how many are liberated, there are still an infinite number waiting to be liberated.

Kris's question concerns the Dzogchen doctrine that all sentient beings in this mahākalpa will be liberated by the end of the mahākalpa. There are a couple of opinions recorded by Longchenpa about where "new" sentient beings come from at the beginning of a new mahākalpa, and whether it is proper to say that sentient beings are newly created at all. It is one of those difficult points.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28243
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: The straying of new sentient beings

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:09 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:40 pm
If you plan on being a Bodhisattva, plan to be around for a REALLY long time.
Well, this is just one kind of bodhicitta, the bodhicitta of shepherd. The usual bodhicitta one develops in Tibetan Buddhism is the bodhicitta of a king.

What is the difference? Just as a shepherd does not rest until all their flock is penned at night, a shepherd bodhisattva puts off their own buddhahood until all sentient beings are liberated. On the other hand, just as king looks after his own benefit first, and then takes care of the kingdom, a king bodhisattva first attains buddhahood and then helps sentient beings. The first is superior to the second, but the second is more practical for sentient beings.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Sennin
Posts: 665
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:19 am

Re: The straying of new sentient beings

Post by Sennin » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:19 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:56 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:40 pm
If you plan on being a Bodhisattva, plan to be around for a REALLY long time. There are infinite sentient beings, that means no matter how many are liberated, there are still an infinite number waiting to be liberated.

Kris's question concerns the Dzogchen doctrine that all sentient beings in this mahākalpa will be liberated by the end of the mahākalpa. There are a couple of opinions recorded by Longchenpa about where "new" sentient beings come from at the beginning of a new mahākalpa, and whether it is proper to say that sentient beings are newly created at all. It is one of those difficult points.
Yes, thank you that's what I was attempting to ask.
Thus, there is not a single one who has entered into this teaching who fails to attain buddhahood.

User avatar
Grigoris
Global Moderator
Posts: 17657
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: The straying of new sentient beings

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:22 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:56 pm
It is one of those difficult points.
Good luck with that one!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28243
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: The straying of new sentient beings

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:51 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:22 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:56 pm
It is one of those difficult points.
Good luck with that one!
It is a major bone of contention between Nyingmapas and other schools.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Mantrik
Posts: 1600
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:55 pm
Contact:

Re: The straying of new sentient beings

Post by Mantrik » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:04 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:51 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:22 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:56 pm
It is one of those difficult points.
Good luck with that one!
It is a major bone of contention between Nyingmapas and other schools.
If the number of sentient beings is infinite, and each rebirth is from one sentient form to another, do we need any new ones? Clearly not, nor do we need a 'beginning'.

Will it be like the 'Rapture' at the end of the mahakalpa and after liberation there will be no more left in samsara? Almost a universal Pure Land liberation without the need to ask?

What is taught about this, please?
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28243
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: The straying of new sentient beings

Post by Malcolm » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:20 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:04 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:51 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:22 pm
Good luck with that one!
It is a major bone of contention between Nyingmapas and other schools.
If the number of sentient beings is infinite, and each rebirth is from one sentient form to another, do we need any new ones? Clearly not, nor do we need a 'beginning'.

Will it be like the 'Rapture' at the end of the mahakalpa and after liberation there will be no more left in samsara? Almost a universal Pure Land liberation without the need to ask?

What is taught about this, please?
Dzogchen tantras teach that by the end of the eon, when all sentient beings have vanished from all the realms below the fourth form realm, all those realms perish (as in Abhidharma), and in the end all sentient beings attain buddhahood (not in Abhidharma).

As I said, it is a difficult point, not easily addressed in a forum like this. I have discussed it elsewhere here several times.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Mantrik
Posts: 1600
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:55 pm
Contact:

Re: The straying of new sentient beings

Post by Mantrik » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:24 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:20 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:04 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:51 pm


It is a major bone of contention between Nyingmapas and other schools.
If the number of sentient beings is infinite, and each rebirth is from one sentient form to another, do we need any new ones? Clearly not, nor do we need a 'beginning'.

Will it be like the 'Rapture' at the end of the mahakalpa and after liberation there will be no more left in samsara? Almost a universal Pure Land liberation without the need to ask?

What is taught about this, please?
Dzogchen tantras teach that by the end of the eon, when all sentient beings have vanished from all the realms below the fourth form realm, all those realms perish (as in Abhidharma), and in the end all sentient beings attain buddhahood (not in Abhidharma).

As I said, it is a difficult point, not easily addressed in a forum like this. I have discussed it elsewhere here several times.
Ah, those realms perish. Thanks. :)
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

User avatar
Sennin
Posts: 665
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:19 am

Re: The straying of new sentient beings

Post by Sennin » Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:16 pm

This past thread has the information I was looking for.
viewtopic.php?f=48&t=6607&hilit=Pralaya

:namaste:
Thus, there is not a single one who has entered into this teaching who fails to attain buddhahood.

User avatar
Mantrik
Posts: 1600
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:55 pm
Contact:

Re: The straying of new sentient beings

Post by Mantrik » Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:45 pm

Sennin wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 9:16 pm
This past thread has the information I was looking for.
viewtopic.php?f=48&t=6607&hilit=Pralaya

:namaste:
Very clear, thanks for finding it and thank you Malcolm.
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

User avatar
Sherab
Posts: 1215
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2010 6:28 am

Re: The straying of new sentient beings

Post by Sherab » Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:53 pm

I'm in the camp of those who think that new beings can arise because of the following:
(1) beings are countable phenomena and therefore can never be countably infinite in reality.
(2) the basis of a being has the nature of kadag and lhundrub, which implies that a being can spontaneously come into existence as a phenomena, and therefore, there is no possibility to the counting of the actual number of beings at any one time. In this sense, beings and therefore sentient beings can be said as "infinite" or more accurately, uncountable.
(3) the above allows for all sentient beings to be liberated at the particular time and for new sentient beings to be present after that liberation event.
(4) I remember reading a sutra that mentioned new beings and old beings but I can't remember which sutra was that. Could be the Sanghagata sutra or the Golden Light sutra, or maybe some other sutra.

User avatar
Mantrik
Posts: 1600
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:55 pm
Contact:

Re: The straying of new sentient beings

Post by Mantrik » Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:24 am

Sherab wrote:
Wed Jan 31, 2018 11:53 pm
I'm in the camp of those who think that new beings can arise because of the following:
(1) beings are countable phenomena and therefore can never be countably infinite in reality.
(2) the basis of a being has the nature of kadag and lhundrub, which implies that a being can spontaneously come into existence as a phenomena, and therefore, there is no possibility to the counting of the actual number of beings at any one time. In this sense, beings and therefore sentient beings can be said as "infinite" or more accurately, uncountable.
(3) the above allows for all sentient beings to be liberated at the particular time and for new sentient beings to be present after that liberation event.
(4) I remember reading a sutra that mentioned new beings and old beings but I can't remember which sutra was that. Could be the Sanghagata sutra or the Golden Light sutra, or maybe some other sutra.
If the existence of beings is not infinite and each us is reborn there can be no addition to the finite pool, therefore your premises fails.
In addition, if mental continuums are beyond our ability to identify then they cannot be counted.
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

Post Reply

Return to “Tibetan Buddhism”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: javier.espinoza.t, Lingpupa, PeterC, Shimali, whistlingb, yosomolo and 34 guests