Pure vision, what's up with?

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climb-up
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Pure vision, what's up with?

Post by climb-up » Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:35 pm

I wonder if anyone can tell me a little about Pure Vision transmissions (if I even have the terminology correct) and how they are received and verified.
I'm not so much interested in how one lama might verify another lama's pure vision (unless that is part of the process), because I know that these can be controversial and there can be disagreements, but about a lama or practitioner receives and verifies these.

Is it common for lamas to receive pure visions as part of their three year retreat, or through their practice in general?
Are these visions sought, or do they just arise?
How are they differentiate from a very strong imaginary experience?

(Just to be clear, ...I have received no pure visions and am not trying to verify any, just very interested in this process).

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Thomas Amundsen
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Re: Pure vision, what's up with?

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:53 am

Pure visions may be a little less "regulated" than termas. But my understanding of termas is that there are some checks and balances in the tradition, it's not completely wild and hairy. For one, I believe a terton must be a reincarnation of one of Padmasambhava's 25 disciples. Secondly, there are six (up to nine?) terma lineages that must be intact for a terma to be considered valid. One of those is a prophesy lineage. The terton should have already been prophesied by Guru Rinpoche that they would reveal this teaching at a particular time and place. Some of these prophesies really are quite detailed.

climb-up
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Re: Pure vision, what's up with?

Post by climb-up » Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:55 am

Thomas Amundsen wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:53 am
Pure visions may be a little less "regulated" than termas. But my understanding of termas is that there are some checks and balances in the tradition, it's not completely wild and hairy. For one, I believe a terton must be a reincarnation of one of Padmasambhava's 25 disciples. Secondly, there are six (up to nine?) terma lineages that must be intact for a terma to be considered valid. One of those is a prophesy lineage. The terton should have already been prophesied by Guru Rinpoche that they would reveal this teaching at a particular time and place. Some of these prophesies really are quite detailed.
Oh wow, thats amazing. I had no idea that it was that detailed!
I'm even more interested in the differences or similarities between the qualifications of a terton and of the receiver of a pure vision teaching.

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Malcolm
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Re: Pure vision, what's up with?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:15 pm

Thomas Amundsen wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:53 am
Pure visions may be a little less "regulated" than termas. But my understanding of termas is that there are some checks and balances in the tradition, it's not completely wild and hairy. For one, I believe a terton must be a reincarnation of one of Padmasambhava's 25 disciples. Secondly, there are six (up to nine?) terma lineages that must be intact for a terma to be considered valid. One of those is a prophesy lineage. The terton should have already been prophesied by Guru Rinpoche that they would reveal this teaching at a particular time and place. Some of these prophesies really are quite detailed.
Most of these rules are later elaborations.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

florin
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Re: Pure vision, what's up with?

Post by florin » Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:56 pm

climb-up wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:35 pm
I wonder if anyone can tell me a little about Pure Vision transmissions (if I even have the terminology correct) and how they are received and verified.
I'm not so much interested in how one lama might verify another lama's pure vision (unless that is part of the process), because I know that these can be controversial and there can be disagreements, but about a lama or practitioner receives and verifies these.

Is it common for lamas to receive pure visions as part of their three year retreat, or through their practice in general?
Are these visions sought, or do they just arise?
How are they differentiate from a very strong imaginary experience?

(Just to be clear, ...I have received no pure visions and am not trying to verify any, just very interested in this process).
You need to be a reancarnation of someone who has had the very rare privilege of having been personally chosen by Padmasambhava to receive the transmissions of said treasures.
These are some of his disciples. When the time comes for these treasures to be revealed the disciple should enter a period of retreat where he meets Padmasambhava himself in a vission or a dream and where past memories of empowerments and details about the terma to be revealed are awakened.
I guess the way this happens is not set in stone but this is how, more or less, Ratna Lingpa explains it.
“The path of the supreme yoga it is not the path of accomplished sages of the past. Whoever enters onto the path of the sages of the past will end up gripped by the sicknesses of the path - meditation, attachment, and exertion.”Thig le drug pa.

“Everything of the universe of saṃsāra and nirvāṇa arises as the enlightened energy of the one self-perfected Natural Presence. But these teachers still mistakenly teach that disciples should fabricate enlightenment by applying discipline, renunciation, interruption, purification and transformation”.

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Thomas Amundsen
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Re: Pure vision, what's up with?

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:32 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:15 pm
Thomas Amundsen wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:53 am
Pure visions may be a little less "regulated" than termas. But my understanding of termas is that there are some checks and balances in the tradition, it's not completely wild and hairy. For one, I believe a terton must be a reincarnation of one of Padmasambhava's 25 disciples. Secondly, there are six (up to nine?) terma lineages that must be intact for a terma to be considered valid. One of those is a prophesy lineage. The terton should have already been prophesied by Guru Rinpoche that they would reveal this teaching at a particular time and place. Some of these prophesies really are quite detailed.
Most of these rules are later elaborations.
Ah, that makes sense. Later like 14th century, or much more recent?

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Malcolm
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Re: Pure vision, what's up with?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:12 pm

Thomas Amundsen wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:32 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:15 pm
Thomas Amundsen wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:53 am
Pure visions may be a little less "regulated" than termas. But my understanding of termas is that there are some checks and balances in the tradition, it's not completely wild and hairy. For one, I believe a terton must be a reincarnation of one of Padmasambhava's 25 disciples. Secondly, there are six (up to nine?) terma lineages that must be intact for a terma to be considered valid. One of those is a prophesy lineage. The terton should have already been prophesied by Guru Rinpoche that they would reveal this teaching at a particular time and place. Some of these prophesies really are quite detailed.
Most of these rules are later elaborations.
Ah, that makes sense. Later like 14th century, or much more recent?
It is cumulative, each generation added more rules.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Thomas Amundsen
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Re: Pure vision, what's up with?

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:52 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:12 pm
Thomas Amundsen wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:32 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:15 pm


Most of these rules are later elaborations.
Ah, that makes sense. Later like 14th century, or much more recent?
It is cumulative, each generation added more rules.
Gotcha, thanks! :anjali:

climb-up
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Re: Pure vision, what's up with?

Post by climb-up » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:14 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:15 pm
Thomas Amundsen wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 3:53 am
Pure visions may be a little less "regulated" than termas. But my understanding of termas is that there are some checks and balances in the tradition, it's not completely wild and hairy. For one, I believe a terton must be a reincarnation of one of Padmasambhava's 25 disciples. Secondly, there are six (up to nine?) terma lineages that must be intact for a terma to be considered valid. One of those is a prophesy lineage. The terton should have already been prophesied by Guru Rinpoche that they would reveal this teaching at a particular time and place. Some of these prophesies really are quite detailed.
Most of these rules are later elaborations.
Does the fact that they are later elaborations mean that some do not follow them, or are they now commonly accepted?

climb-up
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Re: Pure vision, what's up with?

Post by climb-up » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:15 pm

florin wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:56 pm
climb-up wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:35 pm
I wonder if anyone can tell me a little about Pure Vision transmissions (if I even have the terminology correct) and how they are received and verified.
I'm not so much interested in how one lama might verify another lama's pure vision (unless that is part of the process), because I know that these can be controversial and there can be disagreements, but about a lama or practitioner receives and verifies these.

Is it common for lamas to receive pure visions as part of their three year retreat, or through their practice in general?
Are these visions sought, or do they just arise?
How are they differentiate from a very strong imaginary experience?

(Just to be clear, ...I have received no pure visions and am not trying to verify any, just very interested in this process).
You need to be a reancarnation of someone who has had the very rare privilege of having been personally chosen by Padmasambhava to receive the transmissions of said treasures.
These are some of his disciples. When the time comes for these treasures to be revealed the disciple should enter a period of retreat where he meets Padmasambhava himself in a vission or a dream and where past memories of empowerments and details about the terma to be revealed are awakened.
I guess the way this happens is not set in stone but this is how, more or less, Ratna Lingpa explains it.
This is to be a terton right?
Or is it the same to receive a pure vision?

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Malcolm
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Re: Pure vision, what's up with?

Post by Malcolm » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:17 pm

climb-up wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:15 pm
florin wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:56 pm
climb-up wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:35 pm
I wonder if anyone can tell me a little about Pure Vision transmissions (if I even have the terminology correct) and how they are received and verified.
I'm not so much interested in how one lama might verify another lama's pure vision (unless that is part of the process), because I know that these can be controversial and there can be disagreements, but about a lama or practitioner receives and verifies these.

Is it common for lamas to receive pure visions as part of their three year retreat, or through their practice in general?
Are these visions sought, or do they just arise?
How are they differentiate from a very strong imaginary experience?

(Just to be clear, ...I have received no pure visions and am not trying to verify any, just very interested in this process).
You need to be a reancarnation of someone who has had the very rare privilege of having been personally chosen by Padmasambhava to receive the transmissions of said treasures.
These are some of his disciples. When the time comes for these treasures to be revealed the disciple should enter a period of retreat where he meets Padmasambhava himself in a vission or a dream and where past memories of empowerments and details about the terma to be revealed are awakened.
I guess the way this happens is not set in stone but this is how, more or less, Ratna Lingpa explains it.
This is to be a terton right?
Or is it the same to receive a pure vision?
My late teacher, an important terton, said if you want to be a terton, the only real requirement is faith in Guru Rinpoche. If you supplicate him strongly enough with genuine compassion for sentient beings, then you might be able to reveal terma.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

climb-up
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Re: Pure vision, what's up with?

Post by climb-up » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:23 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:17 pm
My late teacher, an important terton, said if you want to be a terton, the only real requirement is faith in Guru Rinpoche. If you supplicate him strongly enough with genuine compassion for sentient beings, then you might be able to reveal terma.
:heart:

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Pure vision, what's up with?

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:25 pm

climb-up wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:23 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:17 pm
My late teacher, an important terton, said if you want to be a terton, the only real requirement is faith in Guru Rinpoche. If you supplicate him strongly enough with genuine compassion for sentient beings, then you might be able to reveal terma.
:heart:


In addition, I believe Naropa has a degree program for that now.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

climb-up
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Re: Pure vision, what's up with?

Post by climb-up » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:10 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:25 pm
climb-up wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:23 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:17 pm
My late teacher, an important terton, said if you want to be a terton, the only real requirement is faith in Guru Rinpoche. If you supplicate him strongly enough with genuine compassion for sentient beings, then you might be able to reveal terma.
:heart:


In addition, I believe Naropa has a degree program for that now.
:rolling:

Motova
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Re: Pure vision, what's up with?

Post by Motova » Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:29 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:17 pm
climb-up wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:15 pm
florin wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:56 pm

You need to be a reancarnation of someone who has had the very rare privilege of having been personally chosen by Padmasambhava to receive the transmissions of said treasures.
These are some of his disciples. When the time comes for these treasures to be revealed the disciple should enter a period of retreat where he meets Padmasambhava himself in a vission or a dream and where past memories of empowerments and details about the terma to be revealed are awakened.
I guess the way this happens is not set in stone but this is how, more or less, Ratna Lingpa explains it.
This is to be a terton right?
Or is it the same to receive a pure vision?
My late teacher, an important terton, said if you want to be a terton, the only real requirement is faith in Guru Rinpoche. If you supplicate him strongly enough with genuine compassion for sentient beings, then you might be able to reveal terma.
:jawdrop:
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.

Kim
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Re: Pure vision, what's up with?

Post by Kim » Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:57 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:17 pm
My late teacher, an important terton, said if you want to be a terton, the only real requirement is faith in Guru Rinpoche. If you supplicate him strongly enough with genuine compassion for sentient beings, then you might be able to reveal terma.
How does this fit with the traditional view of who can be tertons (GR's direct disciples)?

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Malcolm
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Re: Pure vision, what's up with?

Post by Malcolm » Thu Feb 08, 2018 4:20 pm

Kim wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:57 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:17 pm
My late teacher, an important terton, said if you want to be a terton, the only real requirement is faith in Guru Rinpoche. If you supplicate him strongly enough with genuine compassion for sentient beings, then you might be able to reveal terma.
How does this fit with the traditional view of who can be tertons (GR's direct disciples)?
All termas are revealed through GP's blessings.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Kim
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Re: Pure vision, what's up with?

Post by Kim » Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:32 pm

Sure. I guess this interpretation by Kunzang Dechen Lingpa (who I assume you referred to) is rather unique, since tertonship usually refers to someone who has been original disciple of GR.

climb-up
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Re: Pure vision, what's up with?

Post by climb-up » Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:37 pm

So, following up on my OP, the discussion here keeps going back to Tertons (which is fascinating and awesome).

Am I wrong in thinking though that receiving a pure visions is different from receiving a terma and being a terton?
I'm under the impression that these are separate.

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Josef
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Re: Pure vision, what's up with?

Post by Josef » Thu Feb 08, 2018 8:08 pm

climb-up wrote:
Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:37 pm
So, following up on my OP, the discussion here keeps going back to Tertons (which is fascinating and awesome).

Am I wrong in thinking though that receiving a pure visions is different from receiving a terma and being a terton?
I'm under the impression that these are separate.
I think it might be that terma can be revealed bia pure visions but not all pure visions are terma.
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Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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