Questions on Buddhas in Vajrayana

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Dharmasherab
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Questions on Buddhas in Vajrayana

Post by Dharmasherab » Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:48 pm

I myself am a Vajrayana Buddhist who came across these questions from others and I myself am not sure how to entirely address them. As Vajrayana is a path which claims to lead to an outcome/destination I feel it is important for us to be aware of these issues ourselves. Its a bit like when we are walking somewhere and when someone asks where we are going to, we know where we are going.

These questions are for those who wish to answer sincerely without any word games. This is a forum where questions can be asked so response like "who cares?" or "does it matter?" are not answers and if there are people who prefer to answer in such manners it is best that such people avoid commenting.

1. Out of the Vajrayana masters that we have living on Earth today, are some of them fully enlightened?

2. If they are fully enlightened then are they enlightened as Fully Enlightened Supreme Buddhas?

3. If they are as enlightened as Fully Enlightened Supreme Buddhas, then why is not Buddhism growing so fast?

4. If Buddhism is growing by the power of the Fully Enlightened Supreme Buddhas living on earth today then why is Buddhism still behind Christianity, Islam and Hinduism in terms of the number its followers? Why is Buddhism not the fastest growing religion despite more than one Fully Enlightened Supreme Buddhas living today?

5. If they are not as enlightened as Fully Enlightened Supreme Buddhas then at which level is their enlightenment at? When people refer to these masters being ‘enlightened’ then what do they actually mean when they say “this master and that master is enlightened” if their enlightenment is not the equivalent of a Fully Enlightened Supreme Buddha?

6. If many of these teachers that exist today are enlightened as Fully Enlightened Supreme Buddhas then how come they exist altogether at the same time on earth? Is that even possible?

7. Were there any other Fully Enlightened Supreme Buddhas on earth at the same time as Shakyamuni Buddha? If yes then what were their names?

8. If Shakyamuni Buddha was already enlightened prior to his birth and that his life events to strive for enlightenment was just for display then at which point in samsara did he actually reach enlightenment from being an unenlightened sentient being?

9. If the Shakyamuni Buddha gave 84000 teachings (or probably more) then why not we don’t get 84000 teachings of these various Buddhas that exist today?

TaTa
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Re: Questions on Buddhas in Vajrayana

Post by TaTa » Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:41 pm

You where posting this questions in a facebook group right? Hope you enjoy this forum

Fortyeightvows
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Re: Questions on Buddhas in Vajrayana

Post by Fortyeightvows » Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:23 am

3. If they are as enlightened as Fully Enlightened Supreme Buddhas, then why is not Buddhism growing so fast?
Even during shakyamuni's life there were many people who rejected his teaching

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coffeebeans
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Re: Questions on Buddhas in Vajrayana

Post by coffeebeans » Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:01 am

Hi Dharmasherab,

Let me try to the best of my limited knowledge.

1. Difficult to say. Genuine Lamas do not disclose their level of realization even to their students. And since realization is a personal and private experience, no real way to ascertain someone else's realization.
2. Hard to say.
3. Buddhism is not for everyone.
4. To add to #3, finding the Dharma is dependent on karma.
5. Which people?
for #'s 6, 7, and 8, I don't know.

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Josef
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Re: Questions on Buddhas in Vajrayana

Post by Josef » Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:57 pm

Hi Pam,
Still asking these same questions eh?

1. yes
2. yes
3. it is growing at a faster rate than ever before.
4. Buddhism requires personal responsibility, it is a far more difficult path.
5. see 1
6. Only Hinayana claims there can only be one Buddha at a time.
7. Who knows? Probably.
8. It was a teaching.
9. We do, the terma tradition has a vast number of teachings. There is no need to reinvent the wheel though. We dont need another set of of 84000
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

DGA
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Re: Questions on Buddhas in Vajrayana

Post by DGA » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:06 pm

Josef wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:57 pm
6. Only Hinayana claims there can only be one Buddha at a time.
Depends how you put the question. Here's a (potential) counterexample.

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=24717

viewtopic.php?f=59&t=26553

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Dharmasherab
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Re: Questions on Buddhas in Vajrayana

Post by Dharmasherab » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:39 pm

I am asking these questions because I keep getting very different answers from various people who follow Vajrayana. I myself am a Vajrayana Buddhists and even I am not sure what is representative of Vajrayana when it comes to the Buddhahood as an ideal.

I do have to say that when I ask Theravada Buddhists about Buddhahood and Arahanthood, most people give straight forward answers.

It just gives me the impression most people who claim to follow Vajrayana dont really know the purpose or the outcomes of it.

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heart
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Re: Questions on Buddhas in Vajrayana

Post by heart » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:15 pm

Dharmasherab wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:39 pm
I am asking these questions because I keep getting very different answers from various people who follow Vajrayana. I myself am a Vajrayana Buddhists and even I am not sure what is representative of Vajrayana when it comes to the Buddhahood as an ideal.

I do have to say that when I ask Theravada Buddhists about Buddhahood and Arahanthood, most people give straight forward answers.

It just gives me the impression most people who claim to follow Vajrayana dont really know the purpose or the outcomes of it.
A supreme Nirmanakaya, according to the Mahayana sutra Bhadrakalpikasutra, only appear one at the time. There will be 1002 such Buddhas appearing in this aeon, Shakymuni was the fourth. In Vajrayana it is a supreme method to consider your master a perfect Buddha. That doesn't mean they actually are perfect Buddhas, but even if they are Samanthabadra in person they are still not a supreme Nirmanakaya. A supreme Nirmanakaya is a Buddha who takes birth into the world, displays the twelve deeds of a Buddha, and passes into Parinirvana at the end of his life.

The goal in Vajrayana is not to become a supreme Nirmanakaya but rather to fully realize our natural state. This is possible in one life and have been done by countless Vajrayana masters and their students in the past, right this moment and will be done in the future as well.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Malcolm
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Re: Questions on Buddhas in Vajrayana

Post by Malcolm » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:23 pm

heart wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:15 pm


The goal in Vajrayana is not to become a supreme Nirmanakaya but rather to fully realize our natural state. This is possible in one life and have been done by countless Vajrayana masters and their students in the past, right this moment and will be done in the future as well.

Have to disagree with you here, old friend. The goal in Vajrayāna is to attain anuttarasamyaksambodhi, unsurpassed, perfect, complete awakening, i.e., the state of full buddhahood, for the benefit of all sentient beings. Does not mean one manifests as a full-on supreme nirmāṇakāya in our next life. But eventually, in some world system, in some eon, we have that responsibility.

M
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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heart
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Re: Questions on Buddhas in Vajrayana

Post by heart » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:06 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:23 pm
heart wrote:
Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:15 pm


The goal in Vajrayana is not to become a supreme Nirmanakaya but rather to fully realize our natural state. This is possible in one life and have been done by countless Vajrayana masters and their students in the past, right this moment and will be done in the future as well.

Have to disagree with you here, old friend. The goal in Vajrayāna is to attain anuttarasamyaksambodhi, unsurpassed, perfect, complete awakening, i.e., the state of full buddhahood, for the benefit of all sentient beings. Does not mean one manifests as a full-on supreme nirmāṇakāya in our next life. But eventually, in some world system, in some eon, we have that responsibility.

M
Ok, let me rephrase that; "The goal in Vajrayana is not to become a supreme Nirmanakaya in this life but rather...". So, I guess eventually is the key word here. :smile:

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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