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Re: Ngakpas

Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:49 pm
by Malcolm
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:21 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:12 pm
There is no real problem with encouraging people to recite things like the six syllable mantra or Arapacana since they are from sūtra and so do not require any special transmission.

However, it is more useful for such beginners to recite the Heart Sūtra.
Indeed, but practicing a (any) mantra like your life depends on it is exactly what is needed in the case of every mantra. You are overlooking the pedagogical aspect of my post in order to focus on procedural issues (irrelevancies in the case of tenma, who cannot focus on one thing for more than a millisecond). ;)

Now instead of focusing on the mantra mentioned, they will start to ask a string of useless questions regarding the Heart Sutra mantra and any chance of them applying themselves properly to a practice will vanish up their cavity once again.
Well, the real issue here is not whether to recite mantras, or not, but whether they have a teacher or not.

Re: Ngakpas

Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:41 pm
by Grigoris
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:49 pm
Well, the real issue here is not whether to recite mantras, or not, but whether they have a teacher or not.
Indeed it is.

Re: Ngakpas

Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:10 pm
by Mantrik
So, advice here is that there may be the need for either retreat or permission of your teacher before giving someone a lung of a mantra which is not sutric, and one Lama's recommendation of at least 100,000 repetitions.

I wonder what would happen if the clear stipulation was that you must have signs of attaining the function of any mantra before you are allowed to give to others.

And that, of course, brings us full circle back to having a teacher who can tell you when you have.

Re: Ngakpas

Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:40 pm
by Josef
Mantrik wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:10 pm
So, advice here is that there may be the need for either retreat or permission of your teacher before giving someone a lung of a mantra which is not sutric, and one Lama's recommendation of at least 100,000 repetitions.

I wonder what would happen if the clear stipulation was that you must have signs of attaining the function of any mantra before you are allowed to give to others.

And that, of course, brings us full circle back to having a teacher who can tell you when you have.
Many sadhanas indicate the signs, responsible and genuine practitioners should be able to determine for themselves what they are experiencing etc.
Im not saying that one shouldnt consult their teacher but I think we have a tendency to over-rely on our teachers when it comes to our practice and responsibility for upholding the transmission of the dharma.
If a practitioner receives empowerment, does the practice, and has signs of genuine experience, is asked to give the transmission, then they shouldnt be able to make the decision on whether or not to do so based upon their own relationship with the individual requesting and their willingness to take on the responsibility.

Re: Ngakpas

Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:15 pm
by heart
Josef wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:40 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:10 pm
So, advice here is that there may be the need for either retreat or permission of your teacher before giving someone a lung of a mantra which is not sutric, and one Lama's recommendation of at least 100,000 repetitions.

I wonder what would happen if the clear stipulation was that you must have signs of attaining the function of any mantra before you are allowed to give to others.

And that, of course, brings us full circle back to having a teacher who can tell you when you have.
Many sadhanas indicate the signs, responsible and genuine practitioners should be able to determine for themselves what they are experiencing etc.
Im not saying that one shouldnt consult their teacher but I think we have a tendency to over-rely on our teachers when it comes to our practice and responsibility for upholding the transmission of the dharma.
If a practitioner receives empowerment, does the practice, and has signs of genuine experience, is asked to give the transmission, then they shouldnt be able to make the decision on whether or not to do so based upon their own relationship with the individual requesting and their willingness to take on the responsibility.
So, are you saying that there is no need to get the permission the give empowerments from the master that actually gave you the empowerment? You can just decide for yourself when you are ready?

/magnus

Re: Ngakpas

Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:45 pm
by Malcolm
heart wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:15 pm
Josef wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:40 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:10 pm
So, advice here is that there may be the need for either retreat or permission of your teacher before giving someone a lung of a mantra which is not sutric, and one Lama's recommendation of at least 100,000 repetitions.

I wonder what would happen if the clear stipulation was that you must have signs of attaining the function of any mantra before you are allowed to give to others.

And that, of course, brings us full circle back to having a teacher who can tell you when you have.
Many sadhanas indicate the signs, responsible and genuine practitioners should be able to determine for themselves what they are experiencing etc.
Im not saying that one shouldnt consult their teacher but I think we have a tendency to over-rely on our teachers when it comes to our practice and responsibility for upholding the transmission of the dharma.
If a practitioner receives empowerment, does the practice, and has signs of genuine experience, is asked to give the transmission, then they shouldnt be able to make the decision on whether or not to do so based upon their own relationship with the individual requesting and their willingness to take on the responsibility.
So, are you saying that there is no need to get the permission the give empowerments from the master that actually gave you the empowerment? You can just decide for yourself when you are ready?

/magnus
It depends on circumstances. When sentient beings ask for teachings, a bodhisattva gives them. The exception would be if one's own teacher was easily accessible.

Re: Ngakpas

Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:08 pm
by heart
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:45 pm
heart wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:15 pm
Josef wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:40 pm


Many sadhanas indicate the signs, responsible and genuine practitioners should be able to determine for themselves what they are experiencing etc.
Im not saying that one shouldnt consult their teacher but I think we have a tendency to over-rely on our teachers when it comes to our practice and responsibility for upholding the transmission of the dharma.
If a practitioner receives empowerment, does the practice, and has signs of genuine experience, is asked to give the transmission, then they shouldnt be able to make the decision on whether or not to do so based upon their own relationship with the individual requesting and their willingness to take on the responsibility.
So, are you saying that there is no need to get the permission the give empowerments from the master that actually gave you the empowerment? You can just decide for yourself when you are ready?

/magnus
It depends on circumstances. When sentient beings ask for teachings, a bodhisattva gives them. The exception would be if one's own teacher was easily accessible.

I might go along with that, but I am not sure that is what Joesph means. Anyway, I thought there was a lot of special teachings needed for giving other people transmissions?

/magnus

Re: Ngakpas

Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:13 pm
by Malcolm
heart wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:08 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:45 pm
heart wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:15 pm


So, are you saying that there is no need to get the permission the give empowerments from the master that actually gave you the empowerment? You can just decide for yourself when you are ready?

/magnus
It depends on circumstances. When sentient beings ask for teachings, a bodhisattva gives them. The exception would be if one's own teacher was easily accessible.

I might go along with that, but I am not sure that is what Joesph means. Anyway, I thought there was a lot of special teachings needed for giving other people transmissions?

/magnus

Depends on the teaching. But anyone who has been a chöpön, knows everything they need to know to give empowerments. Empowerments, in essence, are just ritual manuals.

Re: Ngakpas

Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:33 pm
by pemachophel
"When sentient beings ask for teachings, a bodhisattva gives them."

Yes, but wouldn't you also say depending on whether the Teacher thinks the student(s) asking are ready for and capable of holding those teachings. One doesn't give a loaded gun to a toddler. In some cases it may be compassionate not to give certain, particular teachings to certain sentient beings.

Re: Ngakpas

Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:40 pm
by Malcolm
pemachophel wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:33 pm
"When sentient beings ask for teachings, a bodhisattva gives them."

Yes, but wouldn't you also say depending on whether the Teacher thinks the student(s) asking are ready for and capable of holding those teachings. One doesn't give a loaded gun to a toddler. In some cases it may be compassionate not to give certain, particular teachings to certain sentient beings.

A teacher has to judge what a student is ready to receive. For this reason we default to the gradual path.

Re: Ngakpas

Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:41 pm
by heart
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:13 pm
heart wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:08 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:45 pm


It depends on circumstances. When sentient beings ask for teachings, a bodhisattva gives them. The exception would be if one's own teacher was easily accessible.

I might go along with that, but I am not sure that is what Joesph means. Anyway, I thought there was a lot of special teachings needed for giving other people transmissions?

/magnus

Depends on the teaching. But anyone who has been a chöpön, knows everything they need to know to give empowerments. Empowerments, in essence, are just ritual manuals.
If an empowerment was just a ritual performed well, what would be the point of receiving it?

/magnus

Re: Ngakpas

Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:39 pm
by Josef
heart wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:15 pm
Josef wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:40 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:10 pm
So, advice here is that there may be the need for either retreat or permission of your teacher before giving someone a lung of a mantra which is not sutric, and one Lama's recommendation of at least 100,000 repetitions.

I wonder what would happen if the clear stipulation was that you must have signs of attaining the function of any mantra before you are allowed to give to others.

And that, of course, brings us full circle back to having a teacher who can tell you when you have.
Many sadhanas indicate the signs, responsible and genuine practitioners should be able to determine for themselves what they are experiencing etc.
Im not saying that one shouldnt consult their teacher but I think we have a tendency to over-rely on our teachers when it comes to our practice and responsibility for upholding the transmission of the dharma.
If a practitioner receives empowerment, does the practice, and has signs of genuine experience, is asked to give the transmission, then they shouldnt be able to make the decision on whether or not to do so based upon their own relationship with the individual requesting and their willingness to take on the responsibility.
So, are you saying that there is no need to get the permission the give empowerments from the master that actually gave you the empowerment? You can just decide for yourself when you are ready?

/magnus
That's not what I said. I put quite a few qualifiers in there.

Re: Ngakpas

Posted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:45 pm
by Josef
heart wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:08 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:45 pm
heart wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 8:15 pm


So, are you saying that there is no need to get the permission the give empowerments from the master that actually gave you the empowerment? You can just decide for yourself when you are ready?

/magnus
It depends on circumstances. When sentient beings ask for teachings, a bodhisattva gives them. The exception would be if one's own teacher was easily accessible.

I might go along with that, but I am not sure that is what Joesph means. Anyway, I thought there was a lot of special teachings needed for giving other people transmissions?

/magnus
That's actually a big part of what I meant.
If one is a bodhisattva with the capacity to give certain teachings and transmissions and the circumstances are appropriate, they are given.

Re: Ngakpas

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:05 am
by Mantrik
Josef wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:40 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:10 pm
So, advice here is that there may be the need for either retreat or permission of your teacher before giving someone a lung of a mantra which is not sutric, and one Lama's recommendation of at least 100,000 repetitions.

I wonder what would happen if the clear stipulation was that you must have signs of attaining the function of any mantra before you are allowed to give to others.

And that, of course, brings us full circle back to having a teacher who can tell you when you have.
Many sadhanas indicate the signs, responsible and genuine practitioners should be able to determine for themselves what they are experiencing etc.
Im not saying that one shouldnt consult their teacher but I think we have a tendency to over-rely on our teachers when it comes to our practice and responsibility for upholding the transmission of the dharma.
If a practitioner receives empowerment, does the practice, and has signs of genuine experience, is asked to give the transmission, then they shouldnt be able to make the decision on whether or not to do so based upon their own relationship with the individual requesting and their willingness to take on the responsibility.
I'd go along with that if you received the sadhana and description of the signs etc from a qualified teacher, but not if you just found a sadhana and explanation on, say, Scribd, and persuaded yourself you were qualified to pass it on.

Re: Ngakpas

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:01 am
by Josef
Mantrik wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:05 am
Josef wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 6:40 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Fri Feb 16, 2018 8:10 pm
So, advice here is that there may be the need for either retreat or permission of your teacher before giving someone a lung of a mantra which is not sutric, and one Lama's recommendation of at least 100,000 repetitions.

I wonder what would happen if the clear stipulation was that you must have signs of attaining the function of any mantra before you are allowed to give to others.

And that, of course, brings us full circle back to having a teacher who can tell you when you have.
Many sadhanas indicate the signs, responsible and genuine practitioners should be able to determine for themselves what they are experiencing etc.
Im not saying that one shouldnt consult their teacher but I think we have a tendency to over-rely on our teachers when it comes to our practice and responsibility for upholding the transmission of the dharma.
If a practitioner receives empowerment, does the practice, and has signs of genuine experience, is asked to give the transmission, then they shouldnt be able to make the decision on whether or not to do so based upon their own relationship with the individual requesting and their willingness to take on the responsibility.
I'd go along with that if you received the sadhana and description of the signs etc from a qualified teacher, but not if you just found a sadhana and explanation on, say, Scribd, and persuaded yourself you were qualified to pass it on.
Of course.
Proper transmission is absolutely essential.

Re: Ngakpas

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:28 am
by Fortyeightvows
what makes it a 'lung' ?
If one just goes to a service and hears the mantras, is it a lung?

Re: Ngakpas

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 2:15 am
by Josef
Fortyeightvows wrote:
Sun Feb 18, 2018 1:28 am
what makes it a 'lung' ?
If one just goes to a service and hears the mantras, is it a lung?
Intention on both sides makes it a lung. Just hearing a mantra doesn’t cut it.

Re: Ngakpas

Posted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:38 am
by Malcolm
heart wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:41 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:13 pm
heart wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:08 pm


I might go along with that, but I am not sure that is what Joesph means. Anyway, I thought there was a lot of special teachings needed for giving other people transmissions?

/magnus

Depends on the teaching. But anyone who has been a chöpön, knows everything they need to know to give empowerments. Empowerments, in essence, are just ritual manuals.
If an empowerment was just a ritual performed well, what would be the point of receiving it?

/magnus

It gives one permission to practice a specific path, that is the point of it. Basically, empowerments are a means of awakening. But if one does not awaken during the empowerment, than one has the sadhana method.