Response to Bernie
Re: Response to Bernie
I`d say in this picture they both receive empowerment from somebody else.
Manju
Manju
Re: Response to Bernie
Started watching the Berlin video; I'm having trouble processing DJKR's take on "what the Buddha actually taught" and "Cinderella sutras". I'm hopeful that this is elaborated later on in the talk but it does seem like a very strange statement to make with such certainty.
Or maybe I'm just too dull to get it.
Or maybe I'm just too dull to get it.
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Re: Response to Bernie
Rinpoche is talking about definite teachings and provisional teachings.Ignorant_Fool wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:30 am Started watching the Berlin video; I'm having trouble processing DJKR's take on "what the Buddha actually taught" and "Cinderella sutras". I'm hopeful that this is elaborated later on in the talk but it does seem like a very strange statement to make with such certainty.
Or maybe I'm just too dull to get it.
Re: Response to Bernie
It was "Cinderella teachings" not "Cinderella sutras".Ignorant_Fool wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:30 am Started watching the Berlin video; I'm having trouble processing DJKR's take on "what the Buddha actually taught" and "Cinderella sutras". I'm hopeful that this is elaborated later on in the talk but it does seem like a very strange statement to make with such certainty.
Or maybe I'm just too dull to get it.
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: Response to Bernie
Not me either. In the picture he looks pretty young so I guess it is Dudjom Rinpoche that gives the empowerment since he used to translate for Dudjom Rinpoche.
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Response to Bernie
It's really just an alternative way of saying what would more classically be called " Provisional, and definitive " teachings.Ignorant_Fool wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:30 am Started watching the Berlin video; I'm having trouble processing DJKR's take on "what the Buddha actually taught" and "Cinderella sutras". I'm hopeful that this is elaborated later on in the talk but it does seem like a very strange statement to make with such certainty.
Or maybe I'm just too dull to get it.
"To have confidence in the teacher is the ultimate refuge." -Rigzin Jigme Lingpa
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Re: Response to Bernie
Possibly of interest: https://www.amazon.com/Yoga-Consciousne ... 185756622X
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Re: Response to Bernie
Clearly. It's quite obvious that neither are giving an empowerment in that picture.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
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Re: Response to Bernie
Actually, this picture raises an interesting question, namely:
To what extent is one permitted to publically criticize, embarrass, etc., one's vajra siblings?
I remember reading a piece by Mary Finnigan on the Tibetan Buddhist Diaspora where, in the comment thread, she said:
It seems that the site is not available anymore, but the piece can be read here:
https://web.archive.org/web/20170514104 ... -diaspora/
Presumably many contemporary lamas, e.g. DJKR, are vajra siblings with Sogyal and this kind of thing might explain their reluctance to publically criticize him.
To what extent is one permitted to publically criticize, embarrass, etc., one's vajra siblings?
I remember reading a piece by Mary Finnigan on the Tibetan Buddhist Diaspora where, in the comment thread, she said:
I too was disappointed when Choegyal Namkhai Norbu invited Sogyal to teach at Merigar and then paid a return visit to Lerab Ling. I wrote to Rinpoche asking him why he was doing this. I sent links to various corroborative items on the internet. Rinpoche wrote back saying that Sogyal is a Vajra brother and that they had received empowerments from the same lama, so he had no option.
It seems that the site is not available anymore, but the piece can be read here:
https://web.archive.org/web/20170514104 ... -diaspora/
Presumably many contemporary lamas, e.g. DJKR, are vajra siblings with Sogyal and this kind of thing might explain their reluctance to publically criticize him.
Last edited by dzogchungpa on Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Re: Response to Bernie
Criticizing vajra siblings out of anger, not ok. But if there is a constructive beneficial purpose, it is ok.dzogchungpa wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:36 pm
Presumably many contemporary lamas, e.g. DJKR, are vajra siblings with Sogyal and this might explain their reluctance to publically criticize him.
Re: Response to Bernie
Tiago Simões wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:09 pm Rinpoche is talking about definite teachings and provisional teachings.
Sonam Wangchug wrote: ↑Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:36 pm It's really just an alternative way of saying what would more classically be called " Provisional, and definitive " teachings.
Thank you all for the clarification. I have much to learn.
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Re: Response to Bernie
weitsicht wrote: ↑Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:56 pm here's the Dharma Mati Recording
https://youtu.be/NWcjJzmOKQk
The Lerab Ling talk is up now:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXwLJdBxSj4
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Response to Bernie
dzogchungpa wrote: ↑Thu Mar 01, 2018 8:50 pmweitsicht wrote: ↑Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:56 pm here's the Dharma Mati Recording
https://youtu.be/NWcjJzmOKQk
The Lerab Ling talk is up now:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXwLJdBxSj4
And now the Paris talk:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlSdoVKO5o8
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Re: Response to Bernie
Thalia tooka break in her contributions but hosts others' articles.
The latest one is about Narcissistic Personality Disorder as the core dysfunctionality of Rigpa which I find very interesting.
I once had to work with a narcissist in a job. He was a superior and it was a nightmare.
It brought me closer to the Dharma path but only because I was immune: I a guest, he was not my boss. Looking back now that was good karma, in various ways.
https://whatnow727.wordpress.com/2018/0 ... ot-asking/
In the comments there is "Julia" saying RIGPA will not change from inside willingly, and that it’s a lost of time to try, or at least that it requires a strong concern and involvement she doesn’t have.
She will continue the Dharma path outside some feudal master relationship requirement. Not sure what it means for Rigpa's set resources but I deem that a good path for the affected ppl. Looking forth, go ahead.
The latest one is about Narcissistic Personality Disorder as the core dysfunctionality of Rigpa which I find very interesting.
I once had to work with a narcissist in a job. He was a superior and it was a nightmare.
It brought me closer to the Dharma path but only because I was immune: I a guest, he was not my boss. Looking back now that was good karma, in various ways.
https://whatnow727.wordpress.com/2018/0 ... ot-asking/
In the comments there is "Julia" saying RIGPA will not change from inside willingly, and that it’s a lost of time to try, or at least that it requires a strong concern and involvement she doesn’t have.
She will continue the Dharma path outside some feudal master relationship requirement. Not sure what it means for Rigpa's set resources but I deem that a good path for the affected ppl. Looking forth, go ahead.
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE
Re: Response to Bernie
I was in his London discussion with Rigpa, and basically all the discussion about samaya was again within the already published articles. (Not saying it was not necessary or benefitial to meet Rigpa sangha face to face)
I have a feeling that DJKR really wants to help Rigpa, this probably biggest Nyingma organisation in the West, move out if not survive from all these, and I admire that very much, considering he already has lots of his 'own' organisations to take care of. The fact he met Rigpa sangha again and again, taking serious questions, posting lengthy reponses, show that he probably care about this 'SR's centre' more than any other lama who made comments.
Though back to this article, I still have questions.
1. He gave a short hint that SR 'didn't have time to practice/be trained', but didn't give details. How untrained? In Rigpawiki, SR gave initiation, but not dbang chen. I highly assume that's a short initiation. Has he finished necessary retreat? I think one can not give ANY form of initiation without first finishing Nyen, but practically... I don't know how this rule is enforced in Tibet.
2. No matter he's qualified to give initiation ritual or not, is SR qualified for Dzogchen direct instruction? DJKR keeps emphasizing 'Dzogchen teaching is the highest initiation'. I think he means point-out instruction. It's not like any talk about Dzogchen is a point-out instruction. I think the requirements for a Dzogchen master who can give point-out instruction is quite high. He or she needs to have very well and stable realisation of Dzogchen. We know he was recognised as a tulku of terton Sorgyal, but who recognised his realisation?
I am not in that little circle (actually quite many people in there I think) called 'Dzogchen mandala', so I don't know how this kind of 'Dzogchen teaching' worked different from just talk about Dzogchen.
Actually, I am not sure if there was a point-out teaching when the students' nature of mind were not really pointed out. In 'common' empowerment, at least you did your visualisation as good as you can and drank water from the vase, but at Fourth empowerment level... Well, I guess people would consider themselves receieved Fourth empowerment merely by seeing Lama waving a piece of crystal and heared 'the nature of mind is like this'. Like what? Do we really know? So I assume we can't blame people who think they received mind pointing out instruction, the highest initiation by just being in that room.
I have a feeling that DJKR really wants to help Rigpa, this probably biggest Nyingma organisation in the West, move out if not survive from all these, and I admire that very much, considering he already has lots of his 'own' organisations to take care of. The fact he met Rigpa sangha again and again, taking serious questions, posting lengthy reponses, show that he probably care about this 'SR's centre' more than any other lama who made comments.
Though back to this article, I still have questions.
1. He gave a short hint that SR 'didn't have time to practice/be trained', but didn't give details. How untrained? In Rigpawiki, SR gave initiation, but not dbang chen. I highly assume that's a short initiation. Has he finished necessary retreat? I think one can not give ANY form of initiation without first finishing Nyen, but practically... I don't know how this rule is enforced in Tibet.
2. No matter he's qualified to give initiation ritual or not, is SR qualified for Dzogchen direct instruction? DJKR keeps emphasizing 'Dzogchen teaching is the highest initiation'. I think he means point-out instruction. It's not like any talk about Dzogchen is a point-out instruction. I think the requirements for a Dzogchen master who can give point-out instruction is quite high. He or she needs to have very well and stable realisation of Dzogchen. We know he was recognised as a tulku of terton Sorgyal, but who recognised his realisation?
I am not in that little circle (actually quite many people in there I think) called 'Dzogchen mandala', so I don't know how this kind of 'Dzogchen teaching' worked different from just talk about Dzogchen.
Actually, I am not sure if there was a point-out teaching when the students' nature of mind were not really pointed out. In 'common' empowerment, at least you did your visualisation as good as you can and drank water from the vase, but at Fourth empowerment level... Well, I guess people would consider themselves receieved Fourth empowerment merely by seeing Lama waving a piece of crystal and heared 'the nature of mind is like this'. Like what? Do we really know? So I assume we can't blame people who think they received mind pointing out instruction, the highest initiation by just being in that room.
Re: Response to Bernie
Many questions remain.
Are those who are 'investigating' the claims of abuse actually qualified to do so in any real way ?
Other than by being self-proclaimed teachers.
Why should I give any credence to the responses of the Tibetan community to this whole mess?
Are those who are 'investigating' the claims of abuse actually qualified to do so in any real way ?
Other than by being self-proclaimed teachers.
Why should I give any credence to the responses of the Tibetan community to this whole mess?
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Re: Response to Bernie
Simon, those are very valid questions but I think that's quite different, if not totally different aspect of this unfortunate whole thing.
Actually, might sound totally non-mahayana, I care more about my own practice path, that's why I have big interest on how samaya established and qualification of teachers in this case. Other than that, I hope all the victims get well and keep going on path. But in the end, they are responsible for their own practice, just like I am responsible for my own path, not investigators, not Tibetan community, not even SR. No matter how big mistake SR or any Tibetan lama made, your practice path is still your own.
Re: Response to Bernie
We shouldn't project about other people.
The word empowerment is well beyond this. But even on the level of mere theater (as you are implying) there is a benefit.people would consider themselves receieved Fourth empowerment merely by seeing Lama waving a piece of crystal and heared 'the nature of mind is like this'.
We take what we experience and meditate on that basis. Even if that understanding/experience were completely conceptual (something I would personally be dubious of) this is valid and becomes refined *IF* people are diligent.Like what? Do we really know?
No, not by just being in the room. But if they had a correct intention and then had some minimal comprehension and focus during the empowerment then they got the empowerment (the seeds were planted/ripened a little).So I assume we can't blame people who think they received mind pointing out instruction, the highest initiation by just being in that room.
We should not be eager to pull others down.
Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Re: Response to Bernie
I think he really cares about Vajrayana in the West, rather than Rigpa, he also have a bunch of students here. There been a very black feeling spreading over social media giving many, me included, a feeling Vajrayana is really threatened as a backlash of the SR scandal. I think people are not giving DJKR credit for the enormous courage it takes to actually stand up for Vajrayana in a time like this. I also think DJKR shouldn't answer for what SR have done, I think SR should do that himself. DJKR can hardly be expected to "fix" Rigpa.narraboth wrote: ↑Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:38 am I was in his London discussion with Rigpa, and basically all the discussion about samaya was again within the already published articles. (Not saying it was not necessary or benefitial to meet Rigpa sangha face to face)
I have a feeling that DJKR really wants to help Rigpa, this probably biggest Nyingma organisation in the West, move out if not survive from all these, and I admire that very much, considering he already has lots of his 'own' organisations to take care of. The fact he met Rigpa sangha again and again, taking serious questions, posting lengthy reponses, show that he probably care about this 'SR's centre' more than any other lama who made comments.
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: Response to Bernie
Vajrayāna is supposed to be secret. All of this is a result of popularizing it.heart wrote: ↑Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:30 pmI think he really cares about Vajrayana in the West, rather than Rigpa, he also have a bunch of students here. There been a very black feeling spreading over social media giving many, me included, a feeling Vajrayana is really threatened as a backlash of the SR scandal. I think people are not giving DJKR credit for the enormous courage it takes to actually stand up for Vajrayana in a time like this. I also think DJKR shouldn't answer for what SR have done, I think SR should do that himself. DJKR can hardly be expected to "fix" Rigpa.narraboth wrote: ↑Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:38 am I was in his London discussion with Rigpa, and basically all the discussion about samaya was again within the already published articles. (Not saying it was not necessary or benefitial to meet Rigpa sangha face to face)
I have a feeling that DJKR really wants to help Rigpa, this probably biggest Nyingma organisation in the West, move out if not survive from all these, and I admire that very much, considering he already has lots of his 'own' organisations to take care of. The fact he met Rigpa sangha again and again, taking serious questions, posting lengthy reponses, show that he probably care about this 'SR's centre' more than any other lama who made comments.
/magnus