kirtu wrote: ↑
Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:30 pm
No, not by just being in the room. But if they had a correct intention and then had some minimal comprehension and focus during the empowerment then they got the empowerment (the seeds were planted/ripened a little).
We should not be eager to pull others down.
Well, that's not the point. If people are pulled down there's not much I can do, though it's not my intention. Maybe not a bad thing for everyone to look inward about what kind of mind nature they actually 'realise', or if it really has happened (if the lama was not qualified to 'transmit' the realisation at first place), but still not the point here. My intention was simply to ask where the samaya of this so-called 'highest initiation' establish. People can have all sort of different levels of understanding/seeds planting, but if you have samaya with certain person, you have it. Where is the line? In conventional empowerments, it's rather clear (not saying totally clear) since we do have rituals and there are commentaries on this issue. In mind-pointing out one,.. well.
Planting seed can happen any time, when your guru looks at you, shouts at you, making a joke, or actually through books from passed masters (there are examples from high lama, eg. Khenpo Jigme Phuntsog, he said he got the most important mind instruction when reading Mipham's work, therefore he actually consider Ju Mipham his root guru)... That's extremely personal and unconventional, probably rightly so. And isn't it self-evidence that which guru gave you the chance to recognise your mind nature? It always puzzles me that, how come people who actually received mind instruction and 'got it' ever possible to stand up against that certain guru, as DJKR said 'you owe him the world for it'? Does that supposedly greatest moment so insignificant for some people, that they think when they find out the certain guru behaved badly, they don't owe that guru that favour anymore? Or actually it's so insignificant, because it was given in a wrong way, therefore insignificant for students?
When we need to seriously talk about samaya based on text and commentaries, including unconventional pointing-out instruction really make defining samaya establishing and breakage quite difficult. Maybe not so much a problem when Dzogchen mind point out/rigpa tsal wang was so rarely given, so secret, and so strict in both guru and student's qualification, while nowadays.....