Response to Bernie

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Response to Bernie

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:49 pm

heart wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:30 pm
I think he really cares about Vajrayana in the West, rather than Rigpa, he also have a bunch of students here. There been a very black feeling spreading over social media giving many, me included, a feeling Vajrayana is really threatened as a backlash of the SR scandal. I think people are not giving DJKR credit for the enormous courage it takes to actually stand up for Vajrayana in a time like this. I also think DJKR shouldn't answer for what SR have done, I think SR should do that himself. DJKR can hardly be expected to "fix" Rigpa.

/magnus


:good:


Honestly, I can't even imagine any other contemporary lama being willing to get up on stage for hours and hours fielding difficult questions about an issue like this.
Last edited by dzogchungpa on Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Simon E.
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Re: Response to Bernie

Post by Simon E. » Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:50 pm

For what it's worth I am of the view that the best thing he can do both for Rigpa and for Vajrayana in the west is shut the frack up about the issue. He has made things worse..I don't doubt the fact that this was not his intention.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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heart
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Re: Response to Bernie

Post by heart » Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:09 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 4:50 pm
For what it's worth I am of the view that the best thing he can do both for Rigpa and for Vajrayana in the west is shut the frack up about the issue. He has made things worse..I don't doubt the fact that this was not his intention.
I don't agree Simon, I am very grateful for his input. I don't think it is getting worse either, it is just people are diverting their outrage from SR to DJKR.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

Simon E.
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Re: Response to Bernie

Post by Simon E. » Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:20 pm

Which is having the effect of unwittingly sustaining the rage Magnus.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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heart
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Re: Response to Bernie

Post by heart » Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:29 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:20 pm
Which is having the effect of unwittingly sustaining the rage Magnus.
I see how you could think like that, but I actually think it would be a lot worse if he didn't speak up. I don't see any other lama in this world that ever would accept questions like the ones he been getting during these talks. I listened to all of the talks.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Response to Bernie

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:47 pm

heart wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:29 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:20 pm
Which is having the effect of unwittingly sustaining the rage Magnus.
I see how you could think like that, but I actually think it would be a lot worse if he didn't speak up. I don't see any other lama in this world that ever would accept questions like the ones he been getting during these talks. I listened to all of the talks.

/magnus

Yes, I agree. I've only listened to the Paris talk, which I thought was pretty good, and I'm halfway through the London talks which I think are really very good. I think not having to use a translator allows for more directness and spontaneity.
Everything is divided
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Everything looks impressive
Do not be deceived - David Byrne

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heart
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Re: Response to Bernie

Post by heart » Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:50 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:47 pm
heart wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:29 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:20 pm
Which is having the effect of unwittingly sustaining the rage Magnus.
I see how you could think like that, but I actually think it would be a lot worse if he didn't speak up. I don't see any other lama in this world that ever would accept questions like the ones he been getting during these talks. I listened to all of the talks.

/magnus

Yes, I agree. I've only listened to the Paris talk, which I thought was pretty good, and I'm halfway through the London talks which I think are really very good. I think not having to use a translator allows for more directness and spontaneity.
Paris and London where the best I think.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Tiago Simões
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Re: Response to Bernie

Post by Tiago Simões » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:41 pm

heart wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:50 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:47 pm
heart wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:29 pm


I see how you could think like that, but I actually think it would be a lot worse if he didn't speak up. I don't see any other lama in this world that ever would accept questions like the ones he been getting during these talks. I listened to all of the talks.

/magnus

Yes, I agree. I've only listened to the Paris talk, which I thought was pretty good, and I'm halfway through the London talks which I think are really very good. I think not having to use a translator allows for more directness and spontaneity.
Paris and London where the best I think.

/magnus
The most fascinating thing is understanding that the things DJKR is saying in those videos is almost the same Malcolm as been saying here all along.

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heart
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Re: Response to Bernie

Post by heart » Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:55 pm

Tiago Simões wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:41 pm
heart wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:50 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:47 pm



Yes, I agree. I've only listened to the Paris talk, which I thought was pretty good, and I'm halfway through the London talks which I think are really very good. I think not having to use a translator allows for more directness and spontaneity.
Paris and London where the best I think.

/magnus
The most fascinating thing is understanding that the things DJKR is saying in those videos is almost the same Malcolm as been saying here all along.
Yes, there are similarities I agree.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

smcj
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Re: Response to Bernie

Post by smcj » Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:44 pm

Maybe it’s simply the case that Vajrayana is not compatible with western values
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Malcolm
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Re: Response to Bernie

Post by Malcolm » Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:54 pm

heart wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:55 pm
Tiago Simões wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:41 pm
heart wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 6:50 pm


Paris and London where the best I think.

/magnus
The most fascinating thing is understanding that the things DJKR is saying in those videos is almost the same Malcolm as been saying here all along.
Yes, there are similarities I agree.

/magnus
It is not surprising, we both were educated in Sakya. :smile:
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Response to Bernie

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:35 pm

Some of those Sakya-Nyingma guys are alright.
Everything is divided
Nothing is complete
Everything looks impressive
Do not be deceived - David Byrne

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heart
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Re: Response to Bernie

Post by heart » Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:39 am

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:54 pm
heart wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:55 pm
Tiago Simões wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:41 pm


The most fascinating thing is understanding that the things DJKR is saying in those videos is almost the same Malcolm as been saying here all along.
Yes, there are similarities I agree.

/magnus
It is not surprising, we both were educated in Sakya. :smile:
Right, he say that Sakya Trizin is one of his most important teachers, that he make him nervous. But he also say that major empowerments are a kindergarten stuff, that the highest empowerment you can get is direct introduction. So he mirrors you on Dzogchen as well. :smile:

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Response to Bernie

Post by dzogchungpa » Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:22 pm

heart wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:39 am
Right, he say that Sakya Trizin is one of his most important teachers, that he make him nervous.

Yes, I remember that, he was talking about the importance of having living teachers. He mentioned two others, Alak Zenkar and something like "a certain woman in China". Does anyone know who that might be? I thought he might be referring to Dakini Muntso, but I don't know.
Everything is divided
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Everything looks impressive
Do not be deceived - David Byrne

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Malcolm
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Re: Response to Bernie

Post by Malcolm » Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:02 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:22 pm
Alak Zenkar...
Is an amazing person. I had the opportunity to meet him briefly at the translation conference, and all I could really say was "Thank you for your dictionary."
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Response to Bernie

Post by dzogchungpa » Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:08 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:02 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:22 pm
Alak Zenkar...
Is an amazing person. I had the opportunity to meet him briefly at the translation conference, and all I could really say was "Thank you for your dictionary."


Nice. DJKR seems to think very highly of him.
Everything is divided
Nothing is complete
Everything looks impressive
Do not be deceived - David Byrne

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Malcolm
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Re: Response to Bernie

Post by Malcolm » Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:02 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:08 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:02 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:22 pm
Alak Zenkar...
Is an amazing person. I had the opportunity to meet him briefly at the translation conference, and all I could really say was "Thank you for your dictionary."


Nice. DJKR seems to think very highly of him.
Everyone does. He is one of the most important lama alive today.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Sonam Wangchug
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Re: Response to Bernie

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Fri Mar 16, 2018 8:22 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:08 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:02 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:22 pm
Alak Zenkar...
Is an amazing person. I had the opportunity to meet him briefly at the translation conference, and all I could really say was "Thank you for your dictionary."


Nice. DJKR seems to think very highly of him.
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narraboth
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Re: Response to Bernie

Post by narraboth » Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:07 pm

kirtu wrote:
Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:30 pm
No, not by just being in the room. But if they had a correct intention and then had some minimal comprehension and focus during the empowerment then they got the empowerment (the seeds were planted/ripened a little).
We should not be eager to pull others down.
Kirt
Well, that's not the point. If people are pulled down there's not much I can do, though it's not my intention. Maybe not a bad thing for everyone to look inward about what kind of mind nature they actually 'realise', or if it really has happened (if the lama was not qualified to 'transmit' the realisation at first place), but still not the point here. My intention was simply to ask where the samaya of this so-called 'highest initiation' establish. People can have all sort of different levels of understanding/seeds planting, but if you have samaya with certain person, you have it. Where is the line? In conventional empowerments, it's rather clear (not saying totally clear) since we do have rituals and there are commentaries on this issue. In mind-pointing out one,.. well.
Planting seed can happen any time, when your guru looks at you, shouts at you, making a joke, or actually through books from passed masters (there are examples from high lama, eg. Khenpo Jigme Phuntsog, he said he got the most important mind instruction when reading Mipham's work, therefore he actually consider Ju Mipham his root guru)... That's extremely personal and unconventional, probably rightly so. And isn't it self-evidence that which guru gave you the chance to recognise your mind nature? It always puzzles me that, how come people who actually received mind instruction and 'got it' ever possible to stand up against that certain guru, as DJKR said 'you owe him the world for it'? Does that supposedly greatest moment so insignificant for some people, that they think when they find out the certain guru behaved badly, they don't owe that guru that favour anymore? Or actually it's so insignificant, because it was given in a wrong way, therefore insignificant for students?

When we need to seriously talk about samaya based on text and commentaries, including unconventional pointing-out instruction really make defining samaya establishing and breakage quite difficult. Maybe not so much a problem when Dzogchen mind point out/rigpa tsal wang was so rarely given, so secret, and so strict in both guru and student's qualification, while nowadays.....

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heart
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Re: Response to Bernie

Post by heart » Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:45 pm

narraboth wrote:
Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:07 pm
It always puzzles me that, how come people who actually received mind instruction and 'got it' ever possible to stand up against that certain guru, as DJKR said 'you owe him the world for it'? Does that supposedly greatest moment so insignificant for some people, that they think when they find out the certain guru behaved badly, they don't owe that guru that favour anymore? Or actually it's so insignificant, because it was given in a wrong way, therefore insignificant for students?
This puzzles me as well.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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