Tradition.

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coffeebeans
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Re: Tradition.

Post by coffeebeans » Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:30 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:25 am
What it points out to me is that lineages (just look at our trees and prayers) and made up of beings transmitting practices, not practices incidentally transmitted by beings....
Can you re-word that?

Got also a somewhat personal question for you that you don't need to answer if you don't want to, but in your Tibetan Buddhist career do you feel the transmissions and instructions you have received were not 'pristine?'

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coffeebeans
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Re: Tradition.

Post by coffeebeans » Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:49 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:25 am
Does the fact that Indians transmitted to the Tibetans guarantee a unchanged instruction?
Good question. I think so.
Do we even have unchanged Indian practices as an example in the first place?
It would be what the Tibetan are practicing.

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Tradition.

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:37 am

coffeebeans wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:30 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:25 am
What it points out to me is that lineages (just look at our trees and prayers) and made up of beings transmitting practices, not practices incidentally transmitted by beings....
Can you re-word that?

Got also a somewhat personal question for you that you don't need to answer if you don't want to, but in your Tibetan Buddhist career do you feel the transmissions and instructions you have received were not 'pristine?'
Pristine in the sense of being precious beyond measure and leading to liberation? Definitely. Pristine in the sense that they are unaltered in their external form from Indian Vajrayana, seems highly unlikely to me. Again though, I am not looking for a museum piece anyway, to my mind authenticity comes from living tradition and being connected to the mandalas of realized beings. It's an ineffable quality, not really something to do exclusively with perfect preservation of the external forms.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Tradition.

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:40 am

coffeebeans wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:49 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:25 am
Does the fact that Indians transmitted to the Tibetans guarantee a unchanged instruction?
Good question. I think so.
Do we even have unchanged Indian practices as an example in the first place?
It would be what the Tibetan are practicing.
Like what? I've heard the various Hevajra lineages might be the closest to Indian Vajrayana, but undeniably many practices done today were synthesized by Tibetans. Do you dispute that? Can you given an example of a practice (not a root Tantra or commentary) that you believe is unchanged from Indian Vajrayana? Not a facetious question, it's not an area where I have any expertise at all and I'm asking as much for my own information as anything else.

The above is an especially bold statement if we start to include Terma, etc. in "What the Tibetans are practicing".
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

-Jeff H.

Simon E.
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Re: Tradition.

Post by Simon E. » Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:30 am

coffeebeans wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:49 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 5:25 am
Does the fact that Indians transmitted to the Tibetans guarantee a unchanged instruction?
Good question. I think so.
Do we even have unchanged Indian practices as an example in the first place?
It would be what the Tibetan are practicing.
Have you received the same wang from more than one teacher? If so, you can hardly fail to notice that the form can vary enormously.
We can assume that something of the essence will not differ..but it is precisely the essence which is the flame. And the form, including robes, titles, vessels, and honorifics and all the accidents which comprise the teacher's personality display, that are the ashes.
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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coffeebeans
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Re: Tradition.

Post by coffeebeans » Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:53 am

Simon E. wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:30 am
Have you received the same wang from more than one teacher? If so, you can hardly fail to notice that the form can vary enormously.
We can assume that something of the essence will not differ..but it is precisely the essence which is the flame. And the form, including robes, titles, vessels, and honorifics and all the accidents which comprise the teacher's personality display, that are the ashes.
:good:

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Grigoris
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Re: Tradition.

Post by Grigoris » Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:20 am

For me the terma tradition exemplifies how tradition and innovation can follow the same course.

Also, the idea of skillful means is all about innovation, and yet it remains within the bounds of tradition.

I believe (and this is a discussion which has been made a million times) that the tradition we really need to uphold is that of the Four Dharma Seals.

Also, we need to delineate between tradition and orthodoxy.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Simon E.
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Re: Tradition.

Post by Simon E. » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:50 pm

That's an interesting area..the interface between orthodoxy and tradition.
I would propose (tentatively) that all orthodoxy is likely to have a traditional expression largely.
But that not all that is traditional is orthodox
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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weitsicht
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Re: Tradition.

Post by weitsicht » Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:20 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:45 pm
" Tradition is not the worship of ashes. It is the preservation of fire".

Gustav Mahler.
I checked against the German original: the preservation / Weitergabe actually is rather caught by a term like transmission. Maybe also dissemination or handover.
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

Simon E.
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Re: Tradition.

Post by Simon E. » Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:23 pm

weitsicht wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:20 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:45 pm
" Tradition is not the worship of ashes. It is the preservation of fire".

Gustav Mahler.
I checked against the German original: the preservation / Weitergabe actually is rather caught by a term like transmission. Maybe also dissemination or handover.
Even better.. :thumbsup:
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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weitsicht
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Re: Tradition.

Post by weitsicht » Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:04 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:20 am
Also, we need to delineate between tradition and orthodoxy.
orthodoxy has the negative connotation of backwardedness and alternatively the preeminent/dominant doctrine.
Was it your intention to apply the term in the former or the latter?
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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coffeebeans
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Re: Tradition.

Post by coffeebeans » Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:04 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:20 am
For me the terma tradition exemplifies how tradition and innovation can follow the same course.

Also, the idea of skillful means is all about innovation, and yet it remains within the bounds of tradition.

I believe (and this is a discussion which has been made a million times) that the tradition we really need to uphold is that of the Four Dharma Seals.

Also, we need to delineate between tradition and orthodoxy.
Are terma really innovation?

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Grigoris
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Re: Tradition.

Post by Grigoris » Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:15 pm

weitsicht wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:04 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 11:20 am
Also, we need to delineate between tradition and orthodoxy.
orthodoxy has the negative connotation of backwardedness and alternatively the preeminent/dominant doctrine.
Was it your intention to apply the term in the former or the latter?
I meant the term as it is defined: Following or conforming to the traditional or generally accepted rules or beliefs of a religion, philosophy, or practice.

In Greek "ortho" means correct and "dox" means doctrine, but it also refers to the word "doxazo" which translate as exalt, glorify or praise.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Grigoris
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Re: Tradition.

Post by Grigoris » Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:16 pm

coffeebeans wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:04 pm
Are terma really innovation?
What do you think?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

fckw
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Re: Tradition.

Post by fckw » Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:53 am

“Begin by learning to draw and paint like the old masters. After that, you can do as you like; everyone will respect you.”
Salvador Dali

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