Tradition.

[Simon E.]

" Tradition is not the worship of ashes. It is the preservation of fire".

Gustav Mahler.

[fuki]

Is a good quote designed by Herr Doktor to preserve the fire for those who want to keep that conceptual flame alive
to match whatever cultural/religious conditioning parading down the neural boulevards.

[Matt J]

The person who teaches oneself has a fool for a student.

—- Anonymous

[Simon E.]

" Tradition is not the worship of ashes. It is the preservation of fire".


Gustav Mahler.

" The main purpose of the Shang Shung Institute is to preserve and develop the ancient traditions of Dzogchen as they have been handed down through the centuries"

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu.

It seems that Rinpoche and Mahler have a similar view of the role of tradition.

[Johnny Dangerous]

Is a good quote designed by Herr Doktor to preserve the fire for those who want to keep that conceptual flame alive
to match whatever cultural/religious conditioning parading down the neural boulevards.

Trying to avoid the relative truth by saying "oh it's just conceptual" is a mistaken approach IMO, as is trying to parade the ultimate like a badge of honor. Relative truths (i.e. tradition) convey the Dharma too.

[Simon E.]

While largely agreeing with you Johnny, I would say that tradition is more than relative truth as a body of concepts.
Certainly, the Vajrayana tradition is also about learning methods, things you do, in the context of a relationship with a valid teacher.
These are inseparable from View.

[Johnny Dangerous]

While largely agreeing with you Johnny, I would say that tradition is more than relative truth as a body of concepts.
Certainly, the Vajrayana tradition is also about learning methods, things you do, in the context of a relationship with a valid teacher.
These are inseparable from View.

A body of concepts connected by the interconnections of teacher, student, and lineage could be seen as one aspect of the mandala principle, a pure dimension etc...

Still, on a base level a 'tradition' is relative by definition, isn't it?

[Simon E.]

Well certainly one could define it in contrast to mistaking Dharma for simply developing awareness in 'the present moment'. Or in the assumption that we all have to make our own Dharma from scratch while ignoring the accumulated wisdom of the centuries. So in that sense, it is relative.

Returning to the OP, I think Mahler was saying that being 'traditional' can look like curating something dead. But actually, it is about nurturing the living flame.

[Johnny Dangerous]

Well certainly one could define it in contrast to mistaking Dharma for simply developing awareness in 'the present moment'. Or in the assumption that we all have to make our own Dharma from scratch while ignoring the accumulated wisdom of the centuries. So in that sense, it is relative.

Returning to the OP, I think Mahler was saying that being 'traditional' can look like curating something dead. But actually, it is about nurturing the living flame.

Yes, for sure, tradition is more a thing that we are a participatory part of than some static thing we preserve like a museum piece. That being said, this also implies we have some responsibility towards our tradition.

[Cianan]

Is a good quote designed by Herr Doktor to preserve the fire for those who want to keep that conceptual flame alive
to match whatever cultural/religious conditioning parading down the neural boulevards.

Conceptuality is not other than the dharmakāya; the dharmakāya is not other than conceptuality. Outright rejection of or contempt for conceptuality whose appearances undeniably arise is mistaken.

Indeed, it is only a conducive arrangement of appearances that can dispel the darkness of a sentient being's non-recognition of suchness.

[Simon E.]

Well certainly one could define it in contrast to mistaking Dharma for simply developing awareness in 'the present moment'. Or in the assumption that we all have to make our own Dharma from scratch while ignoring the accumulated wisdom of the centuries. So in that sense, it is relative.

Returning to the OP, I think Mahler was saying that being 'traditional' can look like curating something dead. But actually, it is about nurturing the living flame.

Yes, for sure, tradition is more a thing that we are a participatory part of than some static thing we preserve like a museum piece. That being said, this also implies we have some responsibility towards our tradition.

Aye.

[dzogchungpa]

There's some interesting discussion of this quote here:
http://classicalmusicguide.com/viewtopic.php?t=38761

While I appreciate the sentiment, it's good to keep in mind that fire can actually be started from scratch.

[Mantrik]

There's some interesting discussion of this quote here:
http://classicalmusicguide.com/viewtopic.php?t=38761

While I appreciate the sentiment, it's good to keep in mind that fire can actually be started from scratch.

I guess it still requires causes and conditions if we mean man-made fire. Someone must want to create it, have fuel and a means to ignite it.

The analogy of the Olympic torch being passed on comes to mind. As technology improves, the chances of it dying out reduce.

[Norwegian]

There's some interesting discussion of this quote here:
http://classicalmusicguide.com/viewtopic.php?t=38761

While I appreciate the sentiment, it's good to keep in mind that fire can actually be started from scratch.

If you know how to. The Sentinelese do not, and their society is still at the level of a paleolithic society. And so the Sentinelese must be taught how to start a fire, by someone who is qualified...

[Simon E.]

Like a fire Guru...

Of course an alternative is to sit in front of our PCs warming our hands at images of fire and convincing ourselves that we are not cold.

[Grigoris]

The person who teaches oneself has a fool for a student.

—- Anonymous

And a fool for a teacher.

[jet.urgyen]

" Tradition is not the worship of ashes. It is the preservation of fire".

Gustav Mahler.

i have a question on this:

vajrayana changed in someway in the transition from india to tibet?

thx.

[Wayfarer]

Good quote Simon. One for the scrapbook (although it goes without saying that it will be stigmatized as “conservatism” by a lot of folks.)

[coffeebeans]

" Tradition is not the worship of ashes. It is the preservation of fire".

Gustav Mahler.

i have a question on this:

vajrayana changed in someway in the transition from india to tibet?

thx.

I'm not aware of any changes other than organizing the practices into a progressive order.

[fuki]

Is a good quote designed by Herr Doktor to preserve the fire for those who want to keep that conceptual flame alive
to match whatever cultural/religious conditioning parading down the neural boulevards.

Trying to avoid the relative truth by saying "oh it's just conceptual" is a mistaken approach IMO, as is trying to parade the ultimate like a badge of honor. Relative truths (i.e. tradition) convey the Dharma too.

Greetings, Mr Dangerous.

Ah that’s not what I was saying at all, but in a way does demonstrate what I was satirically pointing to, ironically enough. The words however were originally posted in the Lounge before being moved to the Tibetian section, and I was just making a joke regarding Gustav Mahler/Frankenstein, “Igor switch on the lights” “Igor feed the cats” etc get it? Everyone is his own condition Igor in a way, we read into things which are not there, and Herr Doktor writes stuff down ofcourse conveniently to assert a point he’s trying to make, which is the Igor in himself. Nevermind it was just a joke, but dharmawheel has its own culture/conditioning reading into stuff and setting stuff up, it’s quite fascinating how people condition each other. Anyways enjoy your meal/day, Johnny.