Read on the Kayas

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weitsicht
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Read on the Kayas

Post by weitsicht » Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:22 pm

I am quite confused about the three (plus one?) kayas and would like to read a bit closer into it.

Understanding seems to be utmost necessary on various levels also due to their interconnectedness to the dzogchen visions, the abhishekas, probably overall the path and the fruition.

I tried the dharmawheel search function but that didn't bring me anywhere. I'd appreciate any advice on a good read. Thanks.

Just to add: the same counts for compassion. A basic term I also don't get applied easily. When should I take action? Or not? In German we have Mitleid (co-suffering) whilst compassion in the dharmic context is translated as Mitgefühl (co-feeling). Does it mean just being empathic, abstaining from any action is the way to go?!
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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Josef
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Re: Read on the Kayas

Post by Josef » Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:26 pm

weitsicht wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:22 pm
I am quite confused about the three (plus one?) kayas and would like to read a bit closer into it.

Understanding seems to be utmost necessary on various levels also due to their interconnectedness to the dzogchen visions, the abhishekas, probably overall the path and the fruition.

I tried the dharmawheel search function but that didn't bring me anywhere. I'd appreciate any advice on a good read. Thanks.

Just to add: the same counts for compassion. A basic term I also don't get applied easily. When should I take action? Or not? In German we have Mitleid (co-suffering) whilst compassion in the dharmic context is translated as Mitgefühl (co-feeling). Does it mean just being empathic, abstaining from any action is the way to go?!
A Guide to the Words of My Perfect Teacher has a good general explanation of these topics and Longchenpa's tsig don dzod has a very detailed one.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Malcolm
Posts: 27132
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Read on the Kayas

Post by Malcolm » Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:51 pm

weitsicht wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:22 pm
I am quite confused about the three (plus one?) kayas and would like to read a bit closer into it.

Understanding seems to be utmost necessary on various levels also due to their interconnectedness to the dzogchen visions, the abhishekas, probably overall the path and the fruition.

I tried the dharmawheel search function but that didn't bring me anywhere. I'd appreciate any advice on a good read. Thanks.

Just to add: the same counts for compassion. A basic term I also don't get applied easily. When should I take action? Or not? In German we have Mitleid (co-suffering) whilst compassion in the dharmic context is translated as Mitgefühl (co-feeling). Does it mean just being empathic, abstaining from any action is the way to go?!

love is the wish that sentient beings be happy. Compassion is the wish that they be free from suffering. Aspirational bodhicitta is based on compassion; engaged bodhicitta is carrying out the first four perfections.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Sennin
Posts: 548
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:19 am

Re: Read on the Kayas

Post by Sennin » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:44 pm

Josef wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:26 pm
weitsicht wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:22 pm
I am quite confused about the three (plus one?) kayas and would like to read a bit closer into it.

Understanding seems to be utmost necessary on various levels also due to their interconnectedness to the dzogchen visions, the abhishekas, probably overall the path and the fruition.

I tried the dharmawheel search function but that didn't bring me anywhere. I'd appreciate any advice on a good read. Thanks.

Just to add: the same counts for compassion. A basic term I also don't get applied easily. When should I take action? Or not? In German we have Mitleid (co-suffering) whilst compassion in the dharmic context is translated as Mitgefühl (co-feeling). Does it mean just being empathic, abstaining from any action is the way to go?!
A Guide to the Words of My Perfect Teacher has a good general explanation of these topics and Longchenpa's tsig don dzod has a very detailed one.
Longchenpa is explaining how the three kAyas that appear at the time of the path of training are not the three kAyas of the time of the result.

Fortyeightvows
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Re: Read on the Kayas

Post by Fortyeightvows » Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:09 am

weitsicht wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:22 pm
I am quite confused about the three (plus one?) kayas and would like to read a bit closer into it.
Check out the book called
The Concept of the Buddha: Its Evolution from Early Buddhism to the Trikāya Theory.

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Josef
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Re: Read on the Kayas

Post by Josef » Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:56 am

Sennin wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:44 pm
Josef wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:26 pm
weitsicht wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:22 pm
I am quite confused about the three (plus one?) kayas and would like to read a bit closer into it.

Understanding seems to be utmost necessary on various levels also due to their interconnectedness to the dzogchen visions, the abhishekas, probably overall the path and the fruition.

I tried the dharmawheel search function but that didn't bring me anywhere. I'd appreciate any advice on a good read. Thanks.

Just to add: the same counts for compassion. A basic term I also don't get applied easily. When should I take action? Or not? In German we have Mitleid (co-suffering) whilst compassion in the dharmic context is translated as Mitgefühl (co-feeling). Does it mean just being empathic, abstaining from any action is the way to go?!
A Guide to the Words of My Perfect Teacher has a good general explanation of these topics and Longchenpa's tsig don dzod has a very detailed one.
Longchenpa is explaining how the three kAyas that appear at the time of the path of training are not the three kAyas of the time of the result.
He explains both very clearly, which is why I posted the text as resource.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

User avatar
weitsicht
Posts: 160
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:47 pm

Re: Read on the Kayas

Post by weitsicht » Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:19 am

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:51 pm
love is the wish that sentient beings be happy. Compassion is the wish that they be free from suffering. Aspirational bodhicitta is based on compassion; engaged bodhicitta is carrying out the first four perfections.
This is about wish only, it doesn't advise on actions.
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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weitsicht
Posts: 160
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:47 pm

Re: Read on the Kayas

Post by weitsicht » Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:21 am

Josef wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:56 am
Sennin wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:44 pm
Josef wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:26 pm
(...)Longchenpa's tsig don dzod has a very detailed one.
Longchenpa is explaining how the three kAyas that appear at the time of the path of training are not the three kAyas of the time of the result.
He explains both very clearly, which is why I posted the text as resource.
Do you talk about number four in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Treasuries ?

I can see what I can do. I made bad experience with the national library system lately.

As concerns the "Words of my Perfect Teacher", luckily googlebooks avails a full copy which is cue searchable. I couldn't quite find a thorough explanation of the kayas. Of course they are mentioned all over the book, but not much more. Or do you mean the footnotes, Josef?

Thank you.
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

User avatar
Josef
Posts: 1891
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Re: Read on the Kayas

Post by Josef » Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:37 pm

weitsicht wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:21 am
Josef wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:56 am
Sennin wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:44 pm


Longchenpa is explaining how the three kAyas that appear at the time of the path of training are not the three kAyas of the time of the result.
He explains both very clearly, which is why I posted the text as resource.
Do you talk about number four in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Treasuries ?

I can see what I can do. I made bad experience with the national library system lately.

As concerns the "Words of my Perfect Teacher", luckily googlebooks avails a full copy which is cue searchable. I couldn't quite find a thorough explanation of the kayas. Of course they are mentioned all over the book, but not much more. Or do you mean the footnotes, Josef?

Thank you.
It's in A Guide to the Words of My Perfect Teacher by Khenpo Ngakchung.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

Sennin
Posts: 548
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:19 am

Re: Read on the Kayas

Post by Sennin » Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:49 pm

Josef wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:56 am
Sennin wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:44 pm
Josef wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:26 pm


A Guide to the Words of My Perfect Teacher has a good general explanation of these topics and Longchenpa's tsig don dzod has a very detailed one.
Longchenpa is explaining how the three kAyas that appear at the time of the path of training are not the three kAyas of the time of the result.
He explains both very clearly, which is why I posted the text as resource.
Agreed. Tsig don dzod [ all seven treasuries] is of the category of how panditas explain; so it's useful to unpack it with help of the Theg mchog mdzod. I was just expressing how that interpretation is a unique feature of Dzogchen.

Fortyeightvows
Posts: 1803
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2014 2:37 am

Re: Read on the Kayas

Post by Fortyeightvows » Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:42 am

The Sarvastivadins conceptualized the Buddha with the two-body theory, arguing that the Buddha possessed a form body (rupakaya) and a truth body (dharmakāya). This theory held that while the physical body of the Buddha did possess the major and minor marks, it was still impure. The dharmakāya of the Buddha on the other hand was endowed with 18 unshared attributes and could therefore serve as a proper object of refuge
Venerable Guan Xing writes that “the concept of dharmakāya was fundamentally changed and transformed in several different ways in Mahayana sutras and treaties.” Paul Williams writes that this development had connections with a shift from early stupa cults to the book cults. The worship of stupas and relics is a form of worshiping the physical body (rupakaya), whereas the Mahayana often manifested itself in book cults and could view themselves as worshiping the dharma-body.
Later traditions developed the two body theory into a three body theory. Prof. P.G. Yogi, writes that it was the Yogacara School which divided the rupakaya into its gross (nirmāṇakāya) and subtle (sambhogakāya) forms. And it in onto the Buddha’s sambhogakāya that the 32 physical marks are manifest.

As an extension of the rupakaya, the sambhogakāya, reward or enjoyment body, is a physical body, though not made up of gross material. The sambhogakāya given as reward body, is mentioned in Garland Sutra and arises from the Buddha having accumulated so much merit through his bodhisattva practices. The supernatural powers of the Buddha are attributed to the sambhogakāya.
Xing, Guang. 2005. The concept of the Buddha: its evolution from early Buddhism to the trikāya theory. London: RoutledgeCurzon.

Williams, Paul. 1989. Mahayana Buddhism: The Doctrinal Foundations. London & New York: Routledge

Griffiths, Paul J. 1994. On being Buddha: the classical doctrine of Buddhahood. Albany, N.Y.: State University of New York Press.

Yogi, P.G. 2012. The Doctrine of Kaya. http://himalaya.socanth.cam.ac.uk/colle ... -03_02.pdf

Nagao, Gajin, and Leslie S. Kawamura. 1991. Mādhyamika and Yogācāra: a study of Mahāyāna philosophies : collected papers of G.M. Nagao. Albany: State University of New York Press.

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weitsicht
Posts: 160
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Re: Read on the Kayas

Post by weitsicht » Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:59 pm

weitsicht wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:19 am
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:51 pm
love is the wish that sentient beings be happy. Compassion is the wish that they be free from suffering. Aspirational bodhicitta is based on compassion; engaged bodhicitta is carrying out the first four perfections.
This is about wish only, it doesn't advise on actions.
so Malcolm, compassion is absent of any guidance as concerns action (speech or body)?
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 27132
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Read on the Kayas

Post by Malcolm » Sun Mar 04, 2018 4:14 pm

weitsicht wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:59 pm
weitsicht wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:19 am
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:51 pm
love is the wish that sentient beings be happy. Compassion is the wish that they be free from suffering. Aspirational bodhicitta is based on compassion; engaged bodhicitta is carrying out the first four perfections.
This is about wish only, it doesn't advise on actions.
so Malcolm, compassion is absent of any guidance as concerns action (speech or body)?
Yes, without wisdom, compassion in general is blind.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

WeiHan
Posts: 418
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 5:50 pm

Re: Read on the Kayas

Post by WeiHan » Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:36 pm

weitsicht wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:59 pm
weitsicht wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:19 am
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:51 pm
love is the wish that sentient beings be happy. Compassion is the wish that they be free from suffering. Aspirational bodhicitta is based on compassion; engaged bodhicitta is carrying out the first four perfections.
This is about wish only, it doesn't advise on actions.
so Malcolm, compassion is absent of any guidance as concerns action (speech or body)?
Correct. Compassion is a mind state. The wish for all beings to be free from suffering. Aspirational bodhicitta is also just a mind state. Only in action bodhicitta does one engage in activities (speech and body) to free all beings from Samsara.

There are proper methods to develop this sequentially called the 7 points cause/effect mind training. As a basis, one needs to recognise that all beings were many times in past lives been our mother and have been very kind to us etc...

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