A Dangerous Fallacy.

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
Locked
Simon E.
Posts: 5545
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

A Dangerous Fallacy.

Post by Simon E. » Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:46 pm

After a period of relative stability on this forum, an old and misleading distortion of Buddhdharma seems to have resurfaced, to whit, nihilistic solipsism.
The notion that only mind..indeed only my mind, exists and is somehow coterminous with MInd, and that Buddhist realisation consists of seeing this to be the case.
This is an idea that has its genesis in various Vedantic teachings. It is not and has never been central to Buddhadharma.
It is an error that has often taken refuge in modern 'zen' flavoured sites where it lurks like the Legionnaires Virus lurks in the heating ducts in public buildings.
Note well, this is not a critique of authentic Zen Buddhism which has a long and respected pedigree, but rather the zen flavoured populist fare offered often by those looking to rationalise their own psychological alienation.
Nihilistic solipsism has never formed any part of the teaching of the Vajrayana, and imo opinion it is incumbent on western students, in particular (because it as an idea it is not found to any degree in traditional Vajrayana culture) to see that it never does.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

User avatar
Josef
Posts: 2149
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 6:44 pm
Contact:

Re: A Dangerous Fallacy.

Post by Josef » Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:08 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:46 pm
After a period of relative stability on this forum, an old and misleading distortion of Buddhdharma seems to have resurfaced, to whit, nihilistic solipsism.
The notion that only mind..indeed only my mind, exists and is somehow coterminous with MInd, and that Buddhist realisation consists of seeing this to be the case.
This is an idea that has its genesis in various Vedantic teachings. It is not and has never been central to Buddhadharma.
It is an error that has often taken refuge in modern 'zen' flavoured sites where it lurks like the Legionnaires Virus lurks in the heating ducts in public buildings.
Note well, this is not a critique of authentic Zen Buddhism which has a long and respected pedigree, but rather the zen flavoured populist fare offered often by those looking to rationalise their own psychological alienation.
Nihilistic solipsism has never formed any part of the teaching of the Vajrayana, and imo opinion it is incumbent on western students, in particular (because it as an idea it is not found to any degree in traditional Vajrayana culture) to see that it never does.
Perhaps it should be a critique of zen, rather than deflected onto "western" Vajrayana students.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

Simon E.
Posts: 5545
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: A Dangerous Fallacy.

Post by Simon E. » Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:13 pm

I would not have mentioned it at all if I had not seen such sentiments in the mouths of purported Vajrayana students.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

krodha
Posts: 2402
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm

Re: A Dangerous Fallacy.

Post by krodha » Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:58 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:13 pm
I would not have mentioned it at all if I had not seen such sentiments in the mouths of purported Vajrayana students.
Vajrayāna does refer to false-aspectarian Yogācāra view for its position on how appearances manifest and are mistakenly apprehended as substantial entities. Hence consciousness in some modality of itself is fundamental.

Solipsism does not work because (i) mind is subject to the same scrutiny as everything else, and (ii) the buddhadharma allows for the conventional diversity of mindstreams.

At the end of the day mind is fundamental, and matter is a byproduct of incorrectly cognizing mind's own display... so while solipsism is an incorrect view, it is only incorrect for specific reasons.

Simon E.
Posts: 5545
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: A Dangerous Fallacy.

Post by Simon E. » Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:07 pm

'Incorrect' being the operative word.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

User avatar
Thomas Amundsen
Posts: 1862
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:50 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Contact:

Re: A Dangerous Fallacy.

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:26 pm

krodha wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:58 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:13 pm
I would not have mentioned it at all if I had not seen such sentiments in the mouths of purported Vajrayana students.
Vajrayāna does refer to false-aspectarian Yogācāra view for its position on how appearances manifest and are mistakenly apprehended as substantial entities. Hence consciousness in some modality of itself is fundamental.

Solipsism does not work because (i) mind is subject to the same scrutiny as everything else, and (ii) the buddhadharma allows for the conventional diversity of mindstreams.

At the end of the day mind is fundamental, and matter is a byproduct of incorrectly cognizing mind's own display... so while solipsism is an incorrect view, it is only incorrect for specific reasons.
:good:

SunWuKong
Posts: 333
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:15 pm

Re: A Dangerous Fallacy.

Post by SunWuKong » Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:06 am

"After a period of relative stability on this forum, an old and misleading distortion of Buddhdharma seems to have resurfaced, to whit, nihilistic solipsism."

Simon, Where?

"It is an error that has often taken refuge in modern 'zen' flavoured sites where it lurks like the Legionnaires Virus lurks in the heating ducts in public buildings."

Again, where?

"Note well, this is not a critique of authentic Zen Buddhism which has a long and respected pedigree, but rather the zen flavoured populist fare offered often by those looking to rationalise their own psychological alienation."

Who?

There is no dialog or discussion possible in hearsay claims. Try to be clear and precise.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

SunWuKong
Posts: 333
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:15 pm

Re: A Dangerous Fallacy.

Post by SunWuKong » Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:09 am

krodha wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:58 pm

At the end of the day mind is fundamental, and matter is a byproduct of incorrectly cognizing mind's own display...
really? where's the proof of that?
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

Monlam Tharchin
Posts: 1672
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:11 am

Re: A Dangerous Fallacy.

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:25 am

SunWuKong wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:09 am
krodha wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:58 pm

At the end of the day mind is fundamental, and matter is a byproduct of incorrectly cognizing mind's own display...
really? where's the proof of that?
Dependent origination.

krodha
Posts: 2402
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm

Re: A Dangerous Fallacy.

Post by krodha » Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:27 am

SunWuKong wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:09 am
krodha wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:58 pm

At the end of the day mind is fundamental, and matter is a byproduct of incorrectly cognizing mind's own display...
really? where's the proof of that?
The only way to prove it to oneself is to awaken and recognize it.

SunWuKong
Posts: 333
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:15 pm

Re: A Dangerous Fallacy.

Post by SunWuKong » Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:33 am

krodha wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:27 am
SunWuKong wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:09 am
krodha wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 7:58 pm

At the end of the day mind is fundamental, and matter is a byproduct of incorrectly cognizing mind's own display...
really? where's the proof of that?
The only way to prove it to oneself is to awaken and recognize it.
That's the cart before the horse. The only way to prove you are awakened is to show it.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

SunWuKong
Posts: 333
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:15 pm

Re: A Dangerous Fallacy.

Post by SunWuKong » Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:38 am

SunWuKong wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:33 am
krodha wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:27 am
SunWuKong wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:09 am


really? where's the proof of that?
The only way to prove it to oneself is to awaken and recognize it.
That's the cart before the horse. The only way to prove you are awakened is to show it.
We can go on like this forever, but really Simon needs to log back on and define his terms. Personally I think the appearance of the "Dangerous Fallacy" on these boards might be a fiction, but if it's not, it's unfair to talk about people behind their backs. Name the names.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

krodha
Posts: 2402
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 10:30 pm

Re: A Dangerous Fallacy.

Post by krodha » Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:21 am

SunWuKong wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:33 am
krodha wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:27 am
SunWuKong wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:09 am


really? where's the proof of that?
The only way to prove it to oneself is to awaken and recognize it.
That's the cart before the horse. The only way to prove you are awakened is to show it.
If I said chocolate is sweet, and you inquired as to what the proof of that sweetness is, I would likewise urge you to taste it for yourself, directly and experientially, then no further proof is needed. You would then know it first hand and even if someone tried to prove otherwise, your confidence would be unassailable.

Simon E.
Posts: 5545
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: A Dangerous Fallacy.

Post by Simon E. » Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:58 am

SunWuKong wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:06 am
"After a period of relative stability on this forum, an old and misleading distortion of Buddhdharma seems to have resurfaced, to whit, nihilistic solipsism."

Simon, Where?

"It is an error that has often taken refuge in modern 'zen' flavoured sites where it lurks like the Legionnaires Virus lurks in the heating ducts in public buildings."

Again, where?

"Note well, this is not a critique of authentic Zen Buddhism which has a long and respected pedigree, but rather the zen flavoured populist fare offered often by those looking to rationalise their own psychological alienation."

Who?

There is no dialog or discussion possible in hearsay claims. Try to be clear and precise.
Take it or leave it.
It wasnt a scientific analysis. If it doesn't have resonance for you, that's fine by me. :namaste:
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

SunWuKong
Posts: 333
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2017 11:15 pm

Re: A Dangerous Fallacy.

Post by SunWuKong » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:04 am

Again, hearsay evidence has no validity. Case dismissed.
"We are magical animals that roam" ~ Roam

Simon E.
Posts: 5545
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: A Dangerous Fallacy.

Post by Simon E. » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:11 am

Fine. We can all go home..at least from this thread.
But before putting my hat and coat on I would just observe that on another forum Meido pointed out that 1) I did not criticise real Zen, quite the reverse and 2) That I said the phenomenon was not confined to Zen and was found in the Vajrayana too.

And frankly ,to deny the fact is naif.

Now..wheres the exit?
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

Simon E.
Posts: 5545
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: A Dangerous Fallacy.

Post by Simon E. » Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:02 pm

I have PMd you SunWuKong. :namaste:
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

ItsRaining
Posts: 233
Joined: Fri May 12, 2017 7:45 am

Re: A Dangerous Fallacy.

Post by ItsRaining » Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:28 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Wed Feb 28, 2018 3:46 pm
After a period of relative stability on this forum, an old and misleading distortion of Buddhdharma seems to have resurfaced, to whit, nihilistic solipsism.
The notion that only mind..indeed only my mind, exists and is somehow coterminous with MInd, and that Buddhist realisation consists of seeing this to be the case.
This is an idea that has its genesis in various Vedantic teachings. It is not and has never been central to Buddhadharma.
It is an error that has often taken refuge in modern 'zen' flavoured sites where it lurks like the Legionnaires Virus lurks in the heating ducts in public buildings.
Note well, this is not a critique of authentic Zen Buddhism which has a long and respected pedigree, but rather the zen flavoured populist fare offered often by those looking to rationalise their own psychological alienation.
Nihilistic solipsism has never formed any part of the teaching of the Vajrayana, and imo opinion it is incumbent on western students, in particular (because it as an idea it is not found to any degree in traditional Vajrayana culture) to see that it never does.
It was just one person misreading the phrase One Mind....

Simon E.
Posts: 5545
Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: A Dangerous Fallacy.

Post by Simon E. » Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:33 pm

No it wasn't...

But itemising every statement from every person who made it is not helpful I would suggest.
Either the phenomenon i.e. mistaking solipsistic nihilism for Buddhadharma exists or it doesn't.
If it doesn't, if it is a figment of my imagination, then there is no need to waste any more time on it, is there?
I have flagged up my concern.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

User avatar
Grigoris
Global Moderator
Posts: 17359
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: A Dangerous Fallacy.

Post by Grigoris » Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:28 pm

I think that's about enough meta-discussion for another day.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Locked

Return to “Tibetan Buddhism”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: falcon, heart, joehaz21, KeithA, Mantrik, pemachophel, rgibson, SonamGyatso, tranides, Yahoo [Bot] and 82 guests