Guru Devotion

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Simon E.
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by Simon E. » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:44 am

TharpaChodron wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:33 am
Thomas Amundsen wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:17 pm
Josef wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:25 pm


It could.
We often make the assumption that upaya and pure view etc is limited to one side of the teacher student coin.
There may be times when the circumstances of wisdom and method require unorthodox behavior from both the teacher and or the student.
It's about the individual relationships and circumstances.
Assuming you have samaya with a teacher, how could you do this without damaging or breaking that samaya?
I was really talking about false gurus not being above reproach, as opposed to genuine lamas. Patrul Rinpoche talks about all the fake lamas in Tibet, the ones with greasy lips from eating meat and such.

As for breaking samaya with ones teacher, yeah, I think criticizing your guru after already making commitments and examining them and finding them to be not false teachers, that is a no-no.

But in our wonderful practice, we do believe in examining a teacher for a while and not merely accepting someone with a title or fan base as a great Lama. sorry I'm beating a dead horse with this old topic.
Some teachers who are widely recognised as the real thing, have 'greasy lips from eating meat'...HHDL for example.
And some impeccably vegetarian teachers appear to be phoney baloneys. I can think of one well known western 'Geshe' for example.
Taking advantage of a temporary situation. Back for a short time only folks.

Simon E.
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by Simon E. » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:48 am

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:12 am
DGA wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:50 am
This sounds like pure fun
Ha! I was too serious...i think HE was the one having fun ! It's the hardest thing to teach someone to drive a stick...LET ALONE YOUR GURU !!!!
Its also hard being the passenger in a car while your guru drives it at breakneck speed down country lanes while he sings loudly and slaps your leg occasionally to make a point. :smile:
Taking advantage of a temporary situation. Back for a short time only folks.

boda
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by boda » Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:38 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:54 am
Appearances are deceiving. When one recognizes one has been deceived by this or that guru, it is perfectly fine to withdraw one’s devotion. After all, following a guru is not a catholic wedding with no hope of divorce if things go south.
Is devotion that’s easily withdrawn actually devotion? And how can there be false gurus to begin with? Can anyone claim to be a guru? Are there no qualifications?

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Kunga Lhadzom
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by Kunga Lhadzom » Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:49 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:48 am
Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:12 am
DGA wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:50 am
This sounds like pure fun
Ha! I was too serious...i think HE was the one having fun ! It's the hardest thing to teach someone to drive a stick...LET ALONE YOUR GURU !!!!
Its also hard being the passenger in a car while your guru drives it at breakneck speed down country lanes while he sings loudly and slaps your leg occasionally to make a point. :smile:

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Thomas Amundsen
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:34 pm

TharpaChodron wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:33 am
Thomas Amundsen wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:17 pm
Josef wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:25 pm


It could.
We often make the assumption that upaya and pure view etc is limited to one side of the teacher student coin.
There may be times when the circumstances of wisdom and method require unorthodox behavior from both the teacher and or the student.
It's about the individual relationships and circumstances.
Assuming you have samaya with a teacher, how could you do this without damaging or breaking that samaya?
I was really talking about false gurus not being above reproach, as opposed to genuine lamas. Patrul Rinpoche talks about all the fake lamas in Tibet, the ones with greasy lips from eating meat and such.

As for breaking samaya with ones teacher, yeah, I think criticizing your guru after already making commitments and examining them and finding them to be not false teachers, that is a no-no.

But in our wonderful practice, we do believe in examining a teacher for a while and not merely accepting someone with a title or fan base as a great Lama. sorry I'm beating a dead horse with this old topic.
Totally agreed :thumbsup:

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Thomas Amundsen
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:36 pm

Josef wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:47 am
Thomas Amundsen wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:17 pm
Josef wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:25 pm


It could.
We often make the assumption that upaya and pure view etc is limited to one side of the teacher student coin.
There may be times when the circumstances of wisdom and method require unorthodox behavior from both the teacher and or the student.
It's about the individual relationships and circumstances.
Assuming you have samaya with a teacher, how could you do this without damaging or breaking that samaya?
It depends. The possible circumstances are limitless.
Aside from Malcolm's comment about an unqualified guru who has deceived their students into thinking they are qualified, can you give one of those limitless examples? I'm trying to see what example there could be, but my impression is that once you enter into a samaya relationship with an authentic vajra guru, the only option is to maintain pure vision of the guru.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:58 pm

Thomas Amundsen wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:36 pm
Josef wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:47 am
Thomas Amundsen wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:17 pm

Assuming you have samaya with a teacher, how could you do this without damaging or breaking that samaya?
It depends. The possible circumstances are limitless.
Aside from Malcolm's comment about an unqualified guru who has deceived their students into thinking they are qualified, can you give one of those limitless examples? I'm trying to see what example there could be, but my impression is that once you enter into a samaya relationship with an authentic vajra guru, the only option is to maintain pure vision of the guru.


If I recall correctly, some examples are mentioned in "Reproaching the Guru from Afar".
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Josef
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by Josef » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:16 pm

Thomas Amundsen wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:36 pm
Josef wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:47 am
Thomas Amundsen wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:17 pm

Assuming you have samaya with a teacher, how could you do this without damaging or breaking that samaya?
It depends. The possible circumstances are limitless.
Aside from Malcolm's comment about an unqualified guru who has deceived their students into thinking they are qualified, can you give one of those limitless examples? I'm trying to see what example there could be, but my impression is that once you enter into a samaya relationship with an authentic vajra guru, the only option is to maintain pure vision of the guru.
Okay, there could be a situation where the guru sees that the disciple is extremely attached to her/him and the only recourse for loosening that attachment is to put the student in a situation where they find a reason to reproach the teacher. Since this is done for the realization of the student and the teacher is aware of the circumstances there would be no breach of samaya.
We could come up with creative ideas for this all day. The point is that the relationship is far too nuanced for the answers to be black and white.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by dzogchungpa » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:25 pm

Josef wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:16 pm
We could come up with creative ideas for this all day. The point is that the relationship is far too nuanced for the answers to be black and white.

How about if the guru actually likes being reproached? Then it would probably be OK, right?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Josef
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by Josef » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:43 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:25 pm
Josef wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:16 pm
We could come up with creative ideas for this all day. The point is that the relationship is far too nuanced for the answers to be black and white.

How about if the guru actually likes being reproached? Then it would probably be OK, right?
Probably.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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yan kong
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by yan kong » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:49 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:05 am
Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:28 pm
I had to teach my teacher how to drive a stick....in a small parking lot........you have no idea......at one point i thought he literally killed the engine...lol...!!! AND....it was MY BRAND NEW CAR !

Sounds like he helped you purify a lot of carma.
Ha! A Buddhist, dad joke. :rolling:
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conebeckham
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by conebeckham » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:01 pm

Thomas Amundsen wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:36 pm
Josef wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:47 am
Thomas Amundsen wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:17 pm

Assuming you have samaya with a teacher, how could you do this without damaging or breaking that samaya?
It depends. The possible circumstances are limitless.
Aside from Malcolm's comment about an unqualified guru who has deceived their students into thinking they are qualified, can you give one of those limitless examples? I'm trying to see what example there could be, but my impression is that once you enter into a samaya relationship with an authentic vajra guru, the only option is to maintain pure vision of the guru.
I am going to agree about limitless possibilities.....for example, while one is maintaining pure vision of the guru, you're doing a Drupcho and he leans over next to you and says "Do I smell like Shit?" and he expects an answer.

Not saying this has happened to me personally, it's just a hypothetical......... :smile:
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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TharpaChodron
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by TharpaChodron » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:25 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:58 pm
Thomas Amundsen wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:36 pm
Josef wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:47 am


It depends. The possible circumstances are limitless.
Aside from Malcolm's comment about an unqualified guru who has deceived their students into thinking they are qualified, can you give one of those limitless examples? I'm trying to see what example there could be, but my impression is that once you enter into a samaya relationship with an authentic vajra guru, the only option is to maintain pure vision of the guru.


If I recall correctly, some examples are mentioned in "Reproaching the Guru from Afar".
Rofl, good one

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TharpaChodron
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by TharpaChodron » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:34 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:44 am
TharpaChodron wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:33 am
Thomas Amundsen wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:17 pm

Assuming you have samaya with a teacher, how could you do this without damaging or breaking that samaya?
I was really talking about false gurus not being above reproach, as opposed to genuine lamas. Patrul Rinpoche talks about all the fake lamas in Tibet, the ones with greasy lips from eating meat and such.

As for breaking samaya with ones teacher, yeah, I think criticizing your guru after already making commitments and examining them and finding them to be not false teachers, that is a no-no.

But in our wonderful practice, we do believe in examining a teacher for a while and not merely accepting someone with a title or fan base as a great Lama. sorry I'm beating a dead horse with this old topic.
Some teachers who are widely recognised as the real thing, have 'greasy lips from eating meat'...HHDL for example.
And some impeccably vegetarian teachers appear to be phoney baloneys. I can think of one well known western 'Geshe' for example.
True. I think Patrul Rinpoche was being slightly (?) hyperbolic in his description, as was I.

Simon E.
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by Simon E. » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:35 am

Aye... :smile:
Taking advantage of a temporary situation. Back for a short time only folks.

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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by DGA » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:37 am

Kunga Lhadzom wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:12 am
DGA wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:50 am
This sounds like pure fun
Ha! I was too serious...i think HE was the one having fun !
I love this.

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PadmaVonSamba
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:02 am

All this discussion about reproach and so forth actually gets back to my original post.
See, there is this sense that whatever your teacher says or instructs you to do, you just take that at face value, without questioning it.
But if you have doubts, and you don't honestly express those doubts, you aren't openly bringing that to the table, are you?
Your doubts are part of your path. You can offer doubts and skepticism just as you'd offer a white scarf, because of your confidence in your teacher.
You are totally relying on your teacher to set the record straight, to remove your doubts.
You can say, "look, I really don't see how banging my head against the floor 100,000 times is going to get me anywhere" and the teacher may say, "Just do it." And so you do. That, I think, is confidence in the teacher, which is the foundation of devotion.
Of course, constant doubt, really to the point of mistrust, is not devotion. It's just being annoying.
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Josef
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by Josef » Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:04 am

PadmaVonSamba wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:02 am
All this discussion about reproach and so forth actually gets back to my original post.
See, there is this sense that whatever your teacher says or instructs you to do, you just take that at face value, without questioning it.
But if you have doubts, and you don't honestly express those doubts, you aren't openly bringing that to the table, are you?
Your doubts are part of your path. You can offer doubts and skepticism just as you'd offer a white scarf, because of your confidence in your teacher.
You are totally relying on your teacher to set the record straight, to remove your doubts.
You can say, "look, I really don't see how banging my head against the floor 100,000 times is going to get me anywhere" and the teacher may say, "Just do it." And so you do. That, I think, is confidence in the teacher, which is the foundation of devotion.
Of course, constant doubt, really to the point of mistrust, is not devotion. It's just being annoying.
.
.
.
If you have received empowerment, and recognized the nature of mind you arent taking anything at face value.
You have the knowledge to apply authentic discernment and bring all of that to the table.
That is when the teacher, student relationship becomes truly profound. When the student is truly able to be an active participant through the guidance of an authentic teacher.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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lelopa
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by lelopa » Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:37 am

Josef wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 6:04 am

If you have received empowerment, and recognized the nature of mind you arent taking anything at face value.
You have the knowledge to apply authentic discernment and bring all of that to the table.
That is when the teacher, student relationship becomes truly profound. When the student is truly able to be an active participant through the guidance of an authentic teacher.
:good:
ཨོཾ་ཨཱཿཧཱུྃ་བོ་དྷི་ཙིཏྟ་མ་ཧཱ་སུ་ཁ་ཛྙཱ་ན་དྷཱརྟུ་ཨཱཿ

Simon E.
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by Simon E. » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:00 am

Seconded. :good:

It's worth bearing in mind I think that not everyone can develop that trust in this lifetime.
There may be a number of reasons for this..karmic, psychological, heavy conditioning in childhood, traumatic encounters..All and any of those may prove a barrier to taking the 4th Refuge.
And thats ok and should be respected.
It only becomes an issue if those who are unable to commit to a teacher/student relationship in the Vajrayana mode dismiss those that are able as gullible or dishonest or naive.
Taking advantage of a temporary situation. Back for a short time only folks.

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