First we fight the zennies to get some practice and then off to fight in the army of Shambala.
Guru Devotion
- Könchok Thrinley
- Former staff member
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Re: Guru Devotion
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche
For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.
- Arya Sanghata Sutra
For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.
- Arya Sanghata Sutra
Re: Guru Devotion
Old joke.
A proud mother is watching her soldier son marching through town " Oh look!" she says fondly " everyone's out of step except for my John!"
It's not a martial metaphor.
A proud mother is watching her soldier son marching through town " Oh look!" she says fondly " everyone's out of step except for my John!"
It's not a martial metaphor.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Re: Guru Devotion
Like this.Simon E. wrote: ↑Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:32 am In my view trying to convince someone of the uniqueness of the teacher/student relationship as found in the Vajrayana is fruitless unless they have experienced it.
They will invariably compare it to some experience they have had.
Or to something they have read.
Or an 'insight' that arose while watching a video.
Or something they have figured out for themselves which they have persuaded themselves is the key to everyone else's experiences.
In any case, they are actually closed. Or more accurately in this context have never opened.
While convincing themselves that it is the Vajrayana army that is out of step and doesn't appreciate them.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Re: Guru Devotion
No, the answer is that you do not understand it, not that you cannot understand it. You could understand it if you wanted to, but it seems that you are not making a genuine effort. Actually it seems that you are making an effort to NOT understand as not understanding seems to fulfill some sort of function in your agenda.
People have spoken plainly, but you have your fingers in your ears and are shouting "La-la-la-la-la!"The inability to speak plainly tells volumes. No, I’m not going read a whole lot about it, but thanks for the suggestion.
You do that. It obviously works for you, so nobody is going to oppose your move.I’ll just go back to my “Pop Zen” where things simply are what they are.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Guru Devotion
No. Then we are off to fight with each other over subtle sectarian differences.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Guru Devotion
Back to the topic please people.
Any more attempts to drag the discussion away from the topic will be met with suspensions and warnings.
That includes myself!
Any more attempts to drag the discussion away from the topic will be met with suspensions and warnings.
That includes myself!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Guru Devotion
So devotion to a guru may include a guru being reproached by their student?TharpaChodron wrote: ↑Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:37 am ...practitioners have a broader view than merely believing gurus are always above reproach.
Last edited by Grigoris on Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed off topic remark.
Reason: Removed off topic remark.
Re: Guru Devotion
It could.boda wrote: ↑Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:44 pmSo devotion to a guru may include a guru being reproached by their student?TharpaChodron wrote: ↑Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:37 am ...practitioners have a broader view than merely believing gurus are always above reproach.
We often make the assumption that upaya and pure view etc is limited to one side of the teacher student coin.
There may be times when the circumstances of wisdom and method require unorthodox behavior from both the teacher and or the student.
It's about the individual relationships and circumstances.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
- dzogchungpa
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Re: Guru Devotion
I'm kind of opposed to it. I really feel that with all the upaya in our arsenal we should be able to get SWK to enlist.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
- Thomas Amundsen
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Re: Guru Devotion
Assuming you have samaya with a teacher, how could you do this without damaging or breaking that samaya?Josef wrote: ↑Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:25 pmIt could.boda wrote: ↑Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:44 pmSo devotion to a guru may include a guru being reproached by their student?TharpaChodron wrote: ↑Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:37 am ...practitioners have a broader view than merely believing gurus are always above reproach.
We often make the assumption that upaya and pure view etc is limited to one side of the teacher student coin.
There may be times when the circumstances of wisdom and method require unorthodox behavior from both the teacher and or the student.
It's about the individual relationships and circumstances.
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Re: Guru Devotion
I had to teach my teacher how to drive a stick....in a small parking lot........you have no idea......at one point i thought he literally killed the engine...lol...!!! AND....it was MY BRAND NEW CAR !
- dzogchungpa
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- Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm
Re: Guru Devotion
Kunga Lhadzom wrote: ↑Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:28 pm I had to teach my teacher how to drive a stick....in a small parking lot........you have no idea......at one point i thought he literally killed the engine...lol...!!! AND....it was MY BRAND NEW CAR !
Sounds like he helped you purify a lot of carma.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
- Johnny Dangerous
- Global Moderator
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Re: Guru Devotion
You don't understand it because you don't practice it, and likely haven't read the volumes and volumes of writing in the subject within Vajrayana. It's not an insult, Vajrayana is pretty damn opaque even to people who practice, there's no reason you'd understand it.
So you want to pontificate about something you aren't willing to read about? Why should we listen to you on the subject at all then?And I’m okay with that.
The inability to speak plainly tells volumes. No, I’m not going read a whole lot about it, but thanks for the suggestion.
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared
-Khunu Lama
Re: Guru Devotion
This sounds like pure funKunga Lhadzom wrote: ↑Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:28 pm I had to teach my teacher how to drive a stick....in a small parking lot........you have no idea......at one point i thought he literally killed the engine...lol...!!! AND....it was MY BRAND NEW CAR !
Seriously, I would love to do that, even though both my vehicles are more or less trash
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Re: Guru Devotion
Good one !
If anyone was watching us, it would of drove them crazy !
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Re: Guru Devotion
I was really talking about false gurus not being above reproach, as opposed to genuine lamas. Patrul Rinpoche talks about all the fake lamas in Tibet, the ones with greasy lips from eating meat and such.Thomas Amundsen wrote: ↑Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:17 pmAssuming you have samaya with a teacher, how could you do this without damaging or breaking that samaya?Josef wrote: ↑Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:25 pmIt could.
We often make the assumption that upaya and pure view etc is limited to one side of the teacher student coin.
There may be times when the circumstances of wisdom and method require unorthodox behavior from both the teacher and or the student.
It's about the individual relationships and circumstances.
As for breaking samaya with ones teacher, yeah, I think criticizing your guru after already making commitments and examining them and finding them to be not false teachers, that is a no-no.
But in our wonderful practice, we do believe in examining a teacher for a while and not merely accepting someone with a title or fan base as a great Lama. sorry I'm beating a dead horse with this old topic.
Re: Guru Devotion
It depends. The possible circumstances are limitless.Thomas Amundsen wrote: ↑Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:17 pmAssuming you have samaya with a teacher, how could you do this without damaging or breaking that samaya?Josef wrote: ↑Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:25 pmIt could.
We often make the assumption that upaya and pure view etc is limited to one side of the teacher student coin.
There may be times when the circumstances of wisdom and method require unorthodox behavior from both the teacher and or the student.
It's about the individual relationships and circumstances.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
Re: Guru Devotion
Appearances are deceiving. When one recognizes one has been deceived by this or that guru, it is perfectly fine to withdraw one’s devotion. After all, following a guru is not a catholic wedding with no hope of divorce if things go south.TharpaChodron wrote: ↑Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:33 amI was really talking about false gurus not being above reproach, as opposed to genuine lamas. Patrul Rinpoche talks about all the fake lamas in Tibet, the ones with greasy lips from eating meat and such.Thomas Amundsen wrote: ↑Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:17 pmAssuming you have samaya with a teacher, how could you do this without damaging or breaking that samaya?Josef wrote: ↑Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:25 pm
It could.
We often make the assumption that upaya and pure view etc is limited to one side of the teacher student coin.
There may be times when the circumstances of wisdom and method require unorthodox behavior from both the teacher and or the student.
It's about the individual relationships and circumstances.
As for breaking samaya with ones teacher, yeah, I think criticizing your guru after already making commitments and examining them and finding them to be not false teachers, that is a no-no.
But in our wonderful practice, we do believe in examining a teacher for a while and not merely accepting someone with a title or fan base as a great Lama. sorry I'm beating a dead horse with this old topic.