Guru Devotion

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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by Könchok Thrinley »

dzogchungpa wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:00 pm The Vajrayana army emerges victorious once again! :woohoo:
First we fight the zennies to get some practice and then off to fight in the army of Shambala. :lol:
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

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Simon E.
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by Simon E. »

Old joke.
A proud mother is watching her soldier son marching through town " Oh look!" she says fondly " everyone's out of step except for my John!"

It's not a martial metaphor. 8-)
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

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Simon E.
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by Simon E. »

Simon E. wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:32 am In my view trying to convince someone of the uniqueness of the teacher/student relationship as found in the Vajrayana is fruitless unless they have experienced it.
They will invariably compare it to some experience they have had.
Or to something they have read.
Or an 'insight' that arose while watching a video.
Or something they have figured out for themselves which they have persuaded themselves is the key to everyone else's experiences.
In any case, they are actually closed. Or more accurately in this context have never opened.
While convincing themselves that it is the Vajrayana army that is out of step and doesn't appreciate them.
Like this.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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Grigoris
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by Grigoris »

SunWuKong wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:27 pm So that’s the real answer to the OP, after all this obfuscation. “You’ll never understand it.”
No, the answer is that you do not understand it, not that you cannot understand it. You could understand it if you wanted to, but it seems that you are not making a genuine effort. Actually it seems that you are making an effort to NOT understand as not understanding seems to fulfill some sort of function in your agenda.
The inability to speak plainly tells volumes. No, I’m not going read a whole lot about it, but thanks for the suggestion.
People have spoken plainly, but you have your fingers in your ears and are shouting "La-la-la-la-la!"
I’ll just go back to my “Pop Zen” where things simply are what they are.
You do that. It obviously works for you, so nobody is going to oppose your move.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Grigoris
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by Grigoris »

Miroku wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:50 pm
dzogchungpa wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:00 pm The Vajrayana army emerges victorious once again! :woohoo:
First we fight the zennies to get some practice and then off to fight in the army of Shambala. :lol:
No. Then we are off to fight with each other over subtle sectarian differences. ;)
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Grigoris
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by Grigoris »

Back to the topic please people.

Any more attempts to drag the discussion away from the topic will be met with suspensions and warnings.

That includes myself! :smile:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
boda
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by boda »

TharpaChodron wrote: Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:37 am ...practitioners have a broader view than merely believing gurus are always above reproach.
So devotion to a guru may include a guru being reproached by their student?
Last edited by Grigoris on Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed off topic remark.
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Josef
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by Josef »

boda wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:44 pm
TharpaChodron wrote: Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:37 am ...practitioners have a broader view than merely believing gurus are always above reproach.
So devotion to a guru may include a guru being reproached by their student?
It could.
We often make the assumption that upaya and pure view etc is limited to one side of the teacher student coin.
There may be times when the circumstances of wisdom and method require unorthodox behavior from both the teacher and or the student.
It's about the individual relationships and circumstances.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by dzogchungpa »

Grigoris wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:29 pm
SunWuKong wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:27 pmI’ll just go back to my “Pop Zen” where things simply are what they are.
You do that. It obviously works for you, so nobody is going to oppose your move.

I'm kind of opposed to it. I really feel that with all the upaya in our arsenal we should be able to get SWK to enlist. :smile:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by Thomas Amundsen »

Josef wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:25 pm
boda wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:44 pm
TharpaChodron wrote: Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:37 am ...practitioners have a broader view than merely believing gurus are always above reproach.
So devotion to a guru may include a guru being reproached by their student?
It could.
We often make the assumption that upaya and pure view etc is limited to one side of the teacher student coin.
There may be times when the circumstances of wisdom and method require unorthodox behavior from both the teacher and or the student.
It's about the individual relationships and circumstances.
Assuming you have samaya with a teacher, how could you do this without damaging or breaking that samaya?
A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha »

I had to teach my teacher how to drive a stick....in a small parking lot........you have no idea......at one point i thought he literally killed the engine...lol...!!! AND....it was MY BRAND NEW CAR !
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by dzogchungpa »

Kunga Lhadzom wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:28 pm I had to teach my teacher how to drive a stick....in a small parking lot........you have no idea......at one point i thought he literally killed the engine...lol...!!! AND....it was MY BRAND NEW CAR !

Sounds like he helped you purify a lot of carma.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

SunWuKong wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:27 pm So that’s the real answer to the OP, after all this obfuscation. “You’ll never understand it.”

You don't understand it because you don't practice it, and likely haven't read the volumes and volumes of writing in the subject within Vajrayana. It's not an insult, Vajrayana is pretty damn opaque even to people who practice, there's no reason you'd understand it.
And I’m okay with that.

The inability to speak plainly tells volumes. No, I’m not going read a whole lot about it, but thanks for the suggestion.
So you want to pontificate about something you aren't willing to read about? Why should we listen to you on the subject at all then?
Meditate upon Bodhicitta when afflicted by disease

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when sad

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when suffering occurs

Meditate upon Bodhicitta when you are scared

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DGA
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by DGA »

Kunga Lhadzom wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:28 pm I had to teach my teacher how to drive a stick....in a small parking lot........you have no idea......at one point i thought he literally killed the engine...lol...!!! AND....it was MY BRAND NEW CAR !
This sounds like pure fun

Seriously, I would love to do that, even though both my vehicles are more or less trash
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by amanitamusc »

Grigoris wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:38 pm Back to the topic please people.

Any more attempts to drag the discussion away from the topic will be met with suspensions and warnings.

That includes myself! :smile:
Mod humor,good one Greg. :tongue:
A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha »

dzogchungpa wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:05 am Sounds like he helped you purify a lot of carma.


Good one !

If anyone was watching us, it would of drove them crazy !
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by A Ah Sha Sa Ma Ha »

DGA wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:50 am This sounds like pure fun
Ha! I was too serious...i think HE was the one having fun ! It's the hardest thing to teach someone to drive a stick...LET ALONE YOUR GURU !!!!
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by KristenM »

Thomas Amundsen wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:17 pm
Josef wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:25 pm
boda wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:44 pm

So devotion to a guru may include a guru being reproached by their student?
It could.
We often make the assumption that upaya and pure view etc is limited to one side of the teacher student coin.
There may be times when the circumstances of wisdom and method require unorthodox behavior from both the teacher and or the student.
It's about the individual relationships and circumstances.
Assuming you have samaya with a teacher, how could you do this without damaging or breaking that samaya?
I was really talking about false gurus not being above reproach, as opposed to genuine lamas. Patrul Rinpoche talks about all the fake lamas in Tibet, the ones with greasy lips from eating meat and such.

As for breaking samaya with ones teacher, yeah, I think criticizing your guru after already making commitments and examining them and finding them to be not false teachers, that is a no-no.

But in our wonderful practice, we do believe in examining a teacher for a while and not merely accepting someone with a title or fan base as a great Lama. sorry I'm beating a dead horse with this old topic.
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Josef
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by Josef »

Thomas Amundsen wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:17 pm
Josef wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:25 pm
boda wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:44 pm

So devotion to a guru may include a guru being reproached by their student?
It could.
We often make the assumption that upaya and pure view etc is limited to one side of the teacher student coin.
There may be times when the circumstances of wisdom and method require unorthodox behavior from both the teacher and or the student.
It's about the individual relationships and circumstances.
Assuming you have samaya with a teacher, how could you do this without damaging or breaking that samaya?
It depends. The possible circumstances are limitless.
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
Malcolm
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Re: Guru Devotion

Post by Malcolm »

TharpaChodron wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:33 am
Thomas Amundsen wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:17 pm
Josef wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:25 pm

It could.
We often make the assumption that upaya and pure view etc is limited to one side of the teacher student coin.
There may be times when the circumstances of wisdom and method require unorthodox behavior from both the teacher and or the student.
It's about the individual relationships and circumstances.
Assuming you have samaya with a teacher, how could you do this without damaging or breaking that samaya?
I was really talking about false gurus not being above reproach, as opposed to genuine lamas. Patrul Rinpoche talks about all the fake lamas in Tibet, the ones with greasy lips from eating meat and such.

As for breaking samaya with ones teacher, yeah, I think criticizing your guru after already making commitments and examining them and finding them to be not false teachers, that is a no-no.

But in our wonderful practice, we do believe in examining a teacher for a while and not merely accepting someone with a title or fan base as a great Lama. sorry I'm beating a dead horse with this old topic.
Appearances are deceiving. When one recognizes one has been deceived by this or that guru, it is perfectly fine to withdraw one’s devotion. After all, following a guru is not a catholic wedding with no hope of divorce if things go south.
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