Phala ?

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Mantrik
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Phala ?

Post by Mantrik » Mon May 07, 2018 8:21 pm

I see many mentions of Karma, and some mentions of Vipaka.

Rarely do I see any mentions of Phala, the fruit of Karma arrived at through the ripening process of Vipaka.

What do people understand by 'Phala'?

Wiki, of course, gives an explanation, but I'm interested to hear from practitioners.
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Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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The Cicada
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Re: Phala ?

Post by The Cicada » Tue May 08, 2018 1:38 am

Mantrik wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 8:21 pm
What do people understand by 'Phala'?


I understand it as powers, but not necessarily in a comic book way. For example, they've done studies that show that more honest people, are more easily able to spot the body language of deception in others to identify a liar. In my experience, it is conversely the case that someone who often lies, maybe because they often commit acts that they and others would consider immoral, are more likely to subconsciously project psychologically onto others and thus suffer from self-deception aside from being unable to perceive the true motives of others.

This is how I see phala working on a day to day level.

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Re: Phala ?

Post by Mantrik » Tue May 08, 2018 8:09 am

The Cicada wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 1:38 am
Mantrik wrote:
Mon May 07, 2018 8:21 pm
What do people understand by 'Phala'?


I understand it as powers, but not necessarily in a comic book way. For example, they've done studies that show that more honest people, are more easily able to spot the body language of deception in others to identify a liar. In my experience, it is conversely the case that someone who often lies, maybe because they often commit acts that they and others would consider immoral, are more likely to subconsciously project psychologically onto others and thus suffer from self-deception aside from being unable to perceive the true motives of others.

This is how I see phala working on a day to day level.
I think there is some connection - isn't 'maha phala' derived from a contemplative life likely to be siddhis?

Of course, the fruit of Karma may be negative too, so a loss of some sort may be the outcome.
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Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Vasana
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Re: Phala ?

Post by Vasana » Tue May 08, 2018 12:22 pm

'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: Phala ?

Post by Mantrik » Tue May 08, 2018 5:00 pm

Thanks - but I couldn't find the term 'phala' per se, which was what I was asking for practitioners' views about.

'Aftermath' is a very odd choice of word, more like a 'residue' after an unpleasant incident, like the period after a nuclear war, rather than a 'fruit'. I've never heard any say they are seeking the 'aftermath' of good karma.
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Re: Phala ?

Post by Palzang Jangchub » Wed May 09, 2018 2:29 am

Is this the same "phala" that we see in mantras, such as those that end in སིདྡྷི་ཕ་ལ་ཧོ༔?
Image

"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme

དྲིན་ཆེན་རྩ་བའི་བླ་མ་སྐྱབས་རྗེ་མགར་ཆེན་ཁྲི་སྤྲུལ་རིན་པོ་ཆེ་ཁྱེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ།།
རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་མཁས་གྲུབ་ཀརྨ་ཆགས་མེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ། ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོཿ

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Re: Phala ?

Post by Josef » Wed May 09, 2018 6:45 am

Palzang Jangchub wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 2:29 am
Is this the same "phala" that we see in mantras, such as those that end in སིདྡྷི་ཕ་ལ་ཧོ༔?
Yes.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Re: Phala ?

Post by Vasana » Wed May 09, 2018 8:58 am

Mantrik wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 5:00 pm
Thanks - but I couldn't find the term 'phala' per se, which was what I was asking for practitioners' views about.

'Aftermath' is a very odd choice of word, more like a 'residue' after an unpleasant incident, like the period after a nuclear war, rather than a 'fruit'. I've never heard any say they are seeking the 'aftermath' of good karma.
Yeah aftermath is a strange gloss. I like some of Berzins idiosyncrasies though.

As far as I understand, we are always experiencing karmic fruits \effects from moment to moment. As long as there are primary seeds and secondary conditions, fruits ripen as our lived experience of the 5 aggregates and 6 consciousnesses tinged by the 3 root afflictions and our categorisation of things as being pleasant, unpleasant or natural. Prajna interrupts that afflicted response for as long as it's duration . I'm not sure what specific aspect of phala you're thinking about though.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: Phala ?

Post by Mantrik » Wed May 09, 2018 9:19 am

Vasana wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 8:58 am
Mantrik wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 5:00 pm
Thanks - but I couldn't find the term 'phala' per se, which was what I was asking for practitioners' views about.

'Aftermath' is a very odd choice of word, more like a 'residue' after an unpleasant incident, like the period after a nuclear war, rather than a 'fruit'. I've never heard any say they are seeking the 'aftermath' of good karma.
Yeah aftermath is a strange gloss. I like some of Berzins idiosyncrasies though.

As far as I understand, we are always experiencing karmic fruits \effects from moment to moment. As long as there are primary seeds and secondary conditions, fruits ripen as our lived experience of the 5 aggregates and 6 consciousnesses tinged by the 3 root afflictions and our categorisation of things as being pleasant, unpleasant or natural. Prajna interrupts that afflicted response for as long as it's duration . I'm not sure what specific aspect of phala you're thinking about though.
I'm just trying to build a picture. That's helpful, thanks :)
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Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Grigoris
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Re: Phala ?

Post by Grigoris » Wed May 09, 2018 9:23 am

Seems that the difference between phala and vipaka is that phala is used manily in reference to the outcome (fruit or fruition) of activities related to the path, whereas vipaka includes non-wholesome outcomes as well...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Mantrik
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Re: Phala ?

Post by Mantrik » Wed May 09, 2018 9:28 am

Grigoris wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 9:23 am
Seems that the difference between phala and vipaka is that phala is used manily in reference to the outcome (fruit or fruition) of activities related to the path, whereas vipaka includes non-wholesome outcomes as well...
I read it more that Vipaka is the process of ripening towards the fruit, which is Phala. I thought Phala includes negative fruit as well, but when related to the fruit of following a Buddhist or contemplative path, it is obviously positive.

Still learning!
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Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Re: Phala ?

Post by Grigoris » Wed May 09, 2018 10:04 am

Mantrik wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 9:28 am
Grigoris wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 9:23 am
Seems that the difference between phala and vipaka is that phala is used manily in reference to the outcome (fruit or fruition) of activities related to the path, whereas vipaka includes non-wholesome outcomes as well...
I read it more that Vipaka is the process of ripening towards the fruit, which is Phala. I thought Phala includes negative fruit as well, but when related to the fruit of following a Buddhist or contemplative path, it is obviously positive.

Still learning!
I only found references (in Abhidhamma texts) to phala associated with the path, but I did not read everything. So...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Mantrik
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Re: Phala ?

Post by Mantrik » Wed May 09, 2018 10:39 am

This author translates Vasabandhu as calling Vipaka Phala the 'fruit of retribution' :
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Wm_ ... it&f=false
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Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Zhen Li
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Re: Phala ?

Post by Zhen Li » Thu May 10, 2018 3:48 am

For Vasubandhu, vipāka is just one of five phalas:
1. Niṣyandaphala: correlative fruition (fruition correlated to a prior hetu (cause))
2. Vipākaphala: ripening fruition (ripening of past karma)
3. Visaṃyogaphala: disconnected fruition (fruition of disconnection from the kleśas, i.e. nirvāṇa)
4. Puruṣakāraphala: fruition of a person's acting (pot from a potter's action; attainment by a practitioner's action)
5. Adhipatiphala: dominant fruition (effects that result in present condition, or seeds of awakening)
Evidently, there may be some overlap between different phalas.

There are different uses in different contexts. When looking into this matter, it is helpful to indicate what context one is enquiring into.

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Re: Phala ?

Post by Mantrik » Thu May 10, 2018 10:09 am

Zhen Li wrote:
Thu May 10, 2018 3:48 am
For Vasubandhu, vipāka is just one of five phalas:
1. Niṣyandaphala: correlative fruition (fruition correlated to a prior hetu (cause))
2. Vipākaphala: ripening fruition (ripening of past karma)
3. Visaṃyogaphala: disconnected fruition (fruition of disconnection from the kleśas, i.e. nirvāṇa)
4. Puruṣakāraphala: fruition of a person's acting (pot from a potter's action; attainment by a practitioner's action)
5. Adhipatiphala: dominant fruition (effects that result in present condition, or seeds of awakening)
Evidently, there may be some overlap between different phalas.

There are different uses in different contexts. When looking into this matter, it is helpful to indicate what context one is enquiring into.
Interesting, thanks :)
That broadens the scope considerably.
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Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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