Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

[amanitamusc]

What are the karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition?

It seems Vajra hell,but remember these are the same people who came
up with the flat earth model so.....don't go over the edge.

Isn't there a symbolism to it?

There is much symbolism in Tibetan Buddhism.

[Tenma]

It seems Vajra hell,but remember these are the same people who came
up with the flat earth model so.....don't go over the edge.

Isn't there a symbolism to it?

There is much symbolism in Tibetan Buddhism.

If there is symbolism to vajra hell, what is it? How does it come from suicide?

[amanitamusc]

Isn't there a symbolism to it?

There is much symbolism in Tibetan Buddhism.

If there is symbolism to vajra hell, what is it? How does it come from suicide?

I can tell you that HHDL has said that all religions including Buddhist use fear.
He said it is wrong and does not approve.

[Aryjna]

Isn't there a symbolism to it?

There is much symbolism in Tibetan Buddhism.

If there is symbolism to vajra hell, what is it? How does it come from suicide?

I think it makes sense in general. When you die just having butchered yourself, irreversibly breaking all your commitments in one of the worst possible ways in the process,and you are in the bardo, the results cannot be good. Taking hallucinogens and having a bad trip is probably insignificant in comparison, but in this case it determines your next existence, and you are also cut off from your lineage as your samaya is gone.

[Malcolm]

What are the karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition?

Vajra hell.

Would be the same for killing ones parents?

Yes.

[Malcolm]

There is much symbolism in Tibetan Buddhism.

If there is symbolism to vajra hell, what is it? How does it come from suicide?

I can tell you that HHDL has said that all religions including Buddhist use fear.
He said it is wrong and does not approve.

When one who is a Vajrayana practitioner comits suicide, one is literally killing one’s aggregates, whose real nature is the five Buddha families. Hence, you completely break Samaya.

[chimechodra]

Where does assisted suicide fall into this discussion? Say you're a long term practitioner who comes down with a serious disease that makes abiding in the body incredibly painful. It would seem to me that if you chose to take your life while calm and in a clear meditative state would produce much more fruitful circumstances in the bardo compared to being sedated by tons of drugs and screaming in pain until the last moment, but then again there is the issue of samaya that Malcolm just mentioned.

[Aryjna]

Where does assisted suicide fall into this discussion? Say you're a long term practitioner who comes down with a serious disease that makes abiding in the body incredibly painful. It would seem to me that if you chose to take your life while calm and in a clear meditative state would produce much more fruitful circumstances in the bardo compared to being sedated by tons of drugs and screaming in pain until the last moment, but then again there is the issue of samaya that Malcolm just mentioned.

But if you are already in great pain why would it be any better in the bardo to die at that moment than some time later? The reason to choose to die would be to avoid the pain that you have ahead of you in this life, not to do better in the bardo.

[pael]

If there is symbolism to vajra hell, what is it? How does it come from suicide?

I can tell you that HHDL has said that all religions including Buddhist use fear.
He said it is wrong and does not approve.

When one who is a Vajrayana practitioner comits suicide, one is literally killing one’s aggregates, whose real nature is the five Buddha families. Hence, you completely break Samaya.

When consequences of this will be exhausted? Can they still achieve enlightenment in some future lives?

[Virgo]

No relation to your post chimechodra, I just wanted to say that I think a lot of Westerners have a hard time understanding the concept of empowerment.

Kevin...

[Malcolm]

I can tell you that HHDL has said that all religions including Buddhist use fear.
He said it is wrong and does not approve.

When one who is a Vajrayana practitioner comits suicide, one is literally killing one’s aggregates, whose real nature is the five Buddha families. Hence, you completely break Samaya.

When consequences of this will be exhausted? Can they still achieve enlightenment in some future lives?

As to your first question, countless millions of eons. As to your second question, yes, eventually.

[Virgo]

As to your first question, countless millions of eons.

That's a long time.

Kevin...

[Tenma]

As to your first question, countless millions of eons.

That's a long time.

Kevin...

Better than eternity...

[Virgo]

Better than eternity...

Yes, that is true

kevin...

[amanitamusc]

Where does assisted suicide fall into this discussion? Say you're a long term practitioner who comes down with a serious disease that makes abiding in the body incredibly painful. It would seem to me that if you chose to take your life while calm and in a clear meditative state would produce much more fruitful circumstances in the bardo compared to being sedated by tons of drugs and screaming in pain until the last moment, but then again there is the issue of samaya that Malcolm just mentioned.

When you are being taken care of at home by an agency.It's job is
to administer pain meds whenever the patient asked for them.When they are
unconscious and can no longer ask for the meds the caregiver is trained to administer
more meds until the patient no longer shows signs of pain, ending in death.
I know this because my Mother worked for such and agency.
There are many situations in any ones death.
I used to have some footage of Buddhist monks that were found in caves.They did
not know the reason but they had ropes skillfully wrapped about them in a sitting
position and when they were tired to hold the heads up the leaning forward
motion would constrict the flow of air.This is how they were found.

[Malcolm]

There are many situations in any ones death.

But here we are talking about a Vajrayāna practitioner who deliberately takes their own life...even doing phowa too soon is a fault...

[amanitamusc]

There are many situations in any ones death.

But here we are talking about a Vajrayāna practitioner who deliberately takes their own life...even doing phowa too soon is a fault...

I understand.I was wandering a bit on this thread.When Vajrayana should have been
the focal point.Interesting about doing the phowa to soon.

[amanitamusc]

There are certain Vajrayana practices you can do to hastens someones demise and
as i remember it was not Kilaya.I won't say more on this on the board.Only that it
could be done by an ordinary practitioner.For ones who were suffering and were close
to death.

[Malcolm]

There are certain Vajrayana practices you can do to hastens someones demise and
as i remember it was not Kilaya.I won't say more on this on the board.Only that it
could be done by an ordinary practitioner.For ones who were suffering and were close
to death.

Doing Shitro for a person near death can either forestall their death, or ease their suffering, which sometimes means dying a little sooner.

[amanitamusc]

There are certain Vajrayana practices you can do to hastens someones demise and
as i remember it was not Kilaya.I won't say more on this on the board.Only that it
could be done by an ordinary practitioner.For ones who were suffering and were close
to death.

Doing Shitro for a person near death can either forestall their death, or ease their suffering, which sometimes means dying a little sooner.

So it could backfire and keep the person alive longer and suffering.That sucks.
or not?