Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

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AlexanderS
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Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by AlexanderS » Mon May 14, 2018 10:13 am

What are the karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition?

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Grigoris
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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by Grigoris » Mon May 14, 2018 12:34 pm

Depends on the motivation.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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AlexanderS
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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by AlexanderS » Mon May 14, 2018 1:08 pm

For people who find their life intolerable? Depression, illness etc.

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Vasana
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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by Vasana » Mon May 14, 2018 2:27 pm

For the above, It's negative and heavy karma since human birth is rare to find. It's also detrimental to your spiritual evolution if you take a multi-life time view. Escaping suffering in this life does not at all guarantee things get in any easier in the bardo or next life. A person is free to not believe in rebirth and instead believe in nihilistic annihilation but it's a bit of a gamble when the Buddha and others say that it is so.

Since we grasp at our living selves as identities, we will also grasp at our illusory mental body after death so the death of the body doesn't mean that our identification with the body and suffering immediately ceases if we haven't developed our wisdom enough.

If you have a precious human rebirth you are also able to meet and practice the dharma. This is meaningful even if your life in all other areas is shitty. You don't know for sure tha your karma will ripen as a rebirth in the human realm again unless you gather the 2 accumulations and purify the 2 obscurations. If you can cultivate the 3 kinds of patience and gather the accumulations even while depressed then your life will be more meaningful than most!

We need to Practice Lojong (and the rest) until attachment/aversion/ joy/sorrow/happiness/sadness can't sway us.

http://www.lotsawahouse.org/topics/lojong/

If you or someone you know is suicidal you should explore whatever therapy and counselling you can get.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Mon May 14, 2018 4:42 pm

You suicide, you fall unconcious, you wake up, surprise! you still exist, "oh no, what i deed!", you turn into a hungry ghost.

What can be said, in general it is not a good deed and don't need a lama speech to know that.
Identities are false and not true

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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by Grigoris » Mon May 14, 2018 5:29 pm

AlexanderS wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 1:08 pm
For people who find their life intolerable? Depression, illness etc.
I meant that the consequences of the action will depend on the motivation for the action: anger, jealousy, pride, desire, etc...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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justsit
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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by justsit » Mon May 14, 2018 5:51 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 5:29 pm
... the consequences of the action will depend on the motivation for the action: anger, jealousy, pride, desire, etc...
Would you venture a guess if the person committed suicide due to a severe psychotic episode? This happened to my cousin who was living at a dharma center with his guru and a few others. He had a history of major depression, developed an acute episode, and eventually became completely delusional before he killed himself.

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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by Grigoris » Mon May 14, 2018 6:14 pm

justsit wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 5:51 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 5:29 pm
... the consequences of the action will depend on the motivation for the action: anger, jealousy, pride, desire, etc...
Would you venture a guess if the person committed suicide due to a severe psychotic episode? This happened to my cousin who was living at a dharma center with his guru and a few others. He had a history of major depression, developed an acute episode, and eventually became completely delusional before he killed himself.
Not really. In the Pali Canon the last mind moment before death will determine the next rebirth (in the absence of a stronger previous mental moment). It is like if you are angry about something now, it is more than likely that your anger will carry over into your next thought/action. In the same way your last mind moment just passes over into your next mind moment. This assumes that the mind continuum continues after death, like it does from the sleeping state to the waking state (most teachers I have heard teach this).
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Virgo
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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by Virgo » Mon May 14, 2018 6:42 pm

AlexanderS wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:13 am
What are the karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition?
You won't attain liberation when you die (in most cases), which means you will suffer in samsara. You won't further your path by doing it. You will likely go to the one of the three lower realms (probably hell, maybe vajra hell which is the worst hell you can go to). You will continue to suffer and who knows when you will meet the path again. So you have made a bad situation worse. This is not a wise thing to do. Everything always changes, in life we know that eventually things will eventually get better. Nothing is permanent or stable. Now we have a human precious rebirth, that means everything. We hold a key for unlocking our potential.

Kevin...
Last edited by Virgo on Mon May 14, 2018 6:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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cyril
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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by cyril » Mon May 14, 2018 6:42 pm

AlexanderS wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:13 am
What are the karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition?

Garchen Rinpoche on suicide:
There is no greater negativity than committing suicide–one creates a very powerful cause of intense suffering by taking one’s own life.

You must understand that all suffering has its seat in the self-grasping mind. When trying to exchange your body, it does not result in exchanging your mind–you cannot escape from your mind. Committing suicide leads to even greater suffering than you experience now; you will not be able to just erase your suffering.

You have your karma and your lifespan. You must allow your karma to play itself out and not bring an end to your life prematurely. Moreover, by killing one’s body you are killing billions of life-forms living within your body, and you acquire the negative karma of that.

You should rather transform your mind. When you are suffering, practice tonglen; take on the suffering of others and think that by you experiencing suffering they will be released. All suffering is temporary; so is conditional happiness. The mind must gain stability in being unmoved by impermanent circumstances. It is never too late to begin to practice. We have wandered in samsara since beginningless time, and at some point we must begin to practice.

Don’t worry about how much time you have wasted for eons in the past–begin to practice now and you will die free of regrets. What you do from now on is more important. When you feel sick in your body, send your mind out into space; do not fixate on the body. Separate the mind from the body and rest in space. You can also visualize Tara in space and recite her mantra. I personally have many pains, but if I do not fixate on them, if I send my mind out into space and meditate, I do not feel them. Only when I begin to think about them do I again feel the pain.

You should moreover think that your own suffering is quite small compared to the suffering of so many other sentient beings. For example, I was kept in prison for twenty years, and you could call this a problem, but not one time did I think about when I would be released. I just practiced Tara day by day, and let alone not thinking of suicide, I was actually quite happy in my mind. If you want to become free of suffering, you must change your mind, not your body. Pray to Tara all the time and recite her mantra, so you never forget about her. Then I can also help you, as I am always practicing Tara. Whenever you experience pain and difficulty, think of Tara single-pointedly”
.

https://bodhiactivity.wordpress.com/201 ... n-suicide/
"You have to make the good out of the bad because that is all you have got to make it out of."
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Losal Samten
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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by Losal Samten » Mon May 14, 2018 7:16 pm

^ Thanks for that.
Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
ཨཱོཾ་མ་ཏྲི་མུ་ཡེ་སལེ་འདུ།།

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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by AlexanderS » Mon May 14, 2018 7:39 pm

Virgo wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 6:42 pm
AlexanderS wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:13 am
What are the karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition?
You won't attain liberation when you die (in most cases), which means you will suffer in samsara. You won't further your path by doing it. You will likely go to the one of the three lower realms (probably hell, maybe vajra hell which is the worst hell you can go to). You will continue to suffer and who knows when you will meet the path again. So you have made a bad situation worse. This is not a wise thing to do. Everything always changes, in life we know that eventually things will eventually get better. Nothing is permanent or stable. Now we have a human precious rebirth, that means everything. We hold a key for unlocking our potential.

Kevin...
Why Vajra hell? If people who commit suicide go to vajrahell, then where does hitler go?

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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by Virgo » Mon May 14, 2018 7:43 pm

AlexanderS wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:39 pm

Why Vajra hell? If people who commit suicide go to vajrahell, then where does hitler go?
Practitioners may go there. I don't know. It's not up to me.

Kevin...
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


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AlexanderS
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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by AlexanderS » Mon May 14, 2018 7:43 pm

cyril wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 6:42 pm
AlexanderS wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:13 am
What are the karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition?

Garchen Rinpoche on suicide:
There is no greater negativity than committing suicide–one creates a very powerful cause of intense suffering by taking one’s own life.

You must understand that all suffering has its seat in the self-grasping mind. When trying to exchange your body, it does not result in exchanging your mind–you cannot escape from your mind. Committing suicide leads to even greater suffering than you experience now; you will not be able to just erase your suffering.

You have your karma and your lifespan. You must allow your karma to play itself out and not bring an end to your life prematurely. Moreover, by killing one’s body you are killing billions of life-forms living within your body, and you acquire the negative karma of that.

You should rather transform your mind. When you are suffering, practice tonglen; take on the suffering of others and think that by you experiencing suffering they will be released. All suffering is temporary; so is conditional happiness. The mind must gain stability in being unmoved by impermanent circumstances. It is never too late to begin to practice. We have wandered in samsara since beginningless time, and at some point we must begin to practice.

Don’t worry about how much time you have wasted for eons in the past–begin to practice now and you will die free of regrets. What you do from now on is more important. When you feel sick in your body, send your mind out into space; do not fixate on the body. Separate the mind from the body and rest in space. You can also visualize Tara in space and recite her mantra. I personally have many pains, but if I do not fixate on them, if I send my mind out into space and meditate, I do not feel them. Only when I begin to think about them do I again feel the pain.

You should moreover think that your own suffering is quite small compared to the suffering of so many other sentient beings. For example, I was kept in prison for twenty years, and you could call this a problem, but not one time did I think about when I would be released. I just practiced Tara day by day, and let alone not thinking of suicide, I was actually quite happy in my mind. If you want to become free of suffering, you must change your mind, not your body. Pray to Tara all the time and recite her mantra, so you never forget about her. Then I can also help you, as I am always practicing Tara. Whenever you experience pain and difficulty, think of Tara single-pointedly”
.

https://bodhiactivity.wordpress.com/201 ... n-suicide/
Isn't murdering someone else much worse than killing yourself?

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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by Virgo » Mon May 14, 2018 7:47 pm

AlexanderS wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:43 pm
Isn't murdering someone else much worse than killing yourself?
Not if you practice Vajrayana. Do you think everything is just play with a bell and and instruments?

If you are a Tibetan Buddhist, you must not be passive. You should balance your energies and increase your lungta so things go well. You should create merit, make aspirations, make offerings, and practice the activities. And when shit still hits the fan, you have the view. If you don't have the view, maybe you cannot consider yourself a practitioner. We shouldn't be passive.

Kevin...
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


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AlexanderS
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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by AlexanderS » Mon May 14, 2018 8:05 pm

Virgo wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:47 pm
AlexanderS wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:43 pm
Isn't murdering someone else much worse than killing yourself?
Not if you practice Vajrayana. Do you think everything is just play with a bell and and instruments?

If you are a Tibetan Buddhist, you must not be passive. You should balance your energies and increase your lungta so things go well. You should create merit, make aspirations, make offerings, and practice the activities. And when shit still hits the fan, you have the view. If you don't have the view, maybe you cannot consider yourself a practitioner. We shouldn't be passive.

Kevin...
I certainly don't consider myself a practioner anymore.

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Virgo
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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by Virgo » Mon May 14, 2018 8:06 pm

AlexanderS wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 8:05 pm
I certainly don't consider myself a practioner anymore.
Well then you should at least focus on happiness in this life.

Are you feeling suicidal?

Kevin...
Last edited by Virgo on Mon May 14, 2018 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


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Virgo
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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by Virgo » Mon May 14, 2018 8:12 pm

If you are feeling suicidal there are certainly people you can talk to and lean on for help. We are here for you. And you can always contact the suicide hotline. https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/

Kevin...
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


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cyril
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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by cyril » Mon May 14, 2018 8:14 pm

AlexanderS wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:43 pm

Isn't murdering someone else much worse than killing yourself?
No idea. Ask Garchen Rinpoche. :smile:
But IMHO, you could look at it in terms of remedial actions available. If you kill someone else, no matter how heavy that karma is, you can still regret, apply the antidotes and purify it afterwards. So, IDK, maybe that karma ripens in a minor way and you still get a higher rebirth and so on. But how will you purify the karma of suicide once the negative state of mind you died in propels you through dreadful bardo visions, the karmic currents drag you to the lower realms and everything just downward spirals?
"You have to make the good out of the bad because that is all you have got to make it out of."
- Robert Penn Warren -

amanitamusc
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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by amanitamusc » Mon May 14, 2018 8:24 pm

In Adeu Rinpoche's book "Freedom in Bondage"
He mentions cases of Lama's choosing to leave the body and not rainbow body
style.
It does not go into detail how they did it but they did choose to leave the body under the extreme conditions of a chinese prison.

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