Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

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Norwegian
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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by Norwegian » Mon May 14, 2018 8:27 pm

amanitamusc wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 8:24 pm
In Adeu Rinpoche's book "Freedom in Bondage"
He mentions cases of Lama's choosing to leave the body and not rainbow body
style.
It does not go into detail how they did it but they did choose to leave the body under the extreme conditions of a chinese prison.
The caveat here is that if you're a realized being, you have control over death. For you the bardo process is not a problem. For a sentient being however, who commits suicide, there's lots of problems to come, since they will not be prepared for the bardo.

AlexanderS
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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by AlexanderS » Mon May 14, 2018 8:31 pm

amanitamusc wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 8:24 pm
In Adeu Rinpoche's book "Freedom in Bondage"
He mentions cases of Lama's choosing to leave the body and not rainbow body
style.
It does not go into detail how they did it but they did choose to leave the body under the extreme conditions of a chinese prison.
Yeah, Im just talking about ordinary deluded sentient beings.

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Aryjna
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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by Aryjna » Mon May 14, 2018 10:34 pm

AlexanderS wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 7:39 pm
Virgo wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 6:42 pm
AlexanderS wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:13 am
What are the karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition?
You won't attain liberation when you die (in most cases), which means you will suffer in samsara. You won't further your path by doing it. You will likely go to the one of the three lower realms (probably hell, maybe vajra hell which is the worst hell you can go to). You will continue to suffer and who knows when you will meet the path again. So you have made a bad situation worse. This is not a wise thing to do. Everything always changes, in life we know that eventually things will eventually get better. Nothing is permanent or stable. Now we have a human precious rebirth, that means everything. We hold a key for unlocking our potential.

Kevin...
Why Vajra hell? If people who commit suicide go to vajrahell, then where does hitler go?
If I had to guess, killing yourself is probably a very serious breach of the samaya, and as you die right after doing it you may end up there as a result.

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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by AlexanderS » Mon May 14, 2018 11:10 pm

Seems a bit harsh tbh

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gescom
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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by gescom » Tue May 15, 2018 3:30 am

Suicide is mentioned in the following book, The Great Secret of Mind: Special Instructions on the Nonduality of Dzogchen by Tulku Pema Rigtsal. The following is a compilation of excerpts on the topic.
Further, these days some imagine that suicide is the best way to end suffering, and they actually propagate such notions on websites, in books, and so on. These are works of fools and not at all correct. As it has been said, Those who find no meaning in life, thwarted, seek happiness in death.

Suicide, however, will not end suffering. At the time of death, first there is heavy suffering in the gradual dissolution of the four elements. Happiness and suffering and even temporal duration are just subjective illusions. Happiness can seem eternal; but even the five-hundred-year life span of a god expires in a moment. Likewise a moment of suffering may seem like an eon. When our lives are full of anxiety and we cannot sleep at night, a day may seem like a month. Look at the pain that we endure when we simply try to stop our breath for one minute; each second seems an eternity.

At the time of death, considering only the suffering caused by the cessation of the outer breath, our suffering is immense. Then, immediately after the moment of death, when outer appearances have ceased and the sound of the bardo hits us like thunder, we are terror struck. When rays of heat and light vastly more powerful than the rays of our sun strike our body, we are terrified. With knowledge of the body’s insubstantiality and transparency, we are paralyzed with fear. Although all this fear is mental delusion, the suffering is seven times greater than mundane suffering. Consciousness is now moving like a feather on the wind, without any control at all. Beset by the illusions of the after-death bardo, we must go alone and friendless through the narrow defile of rebirth. To find more about the bardos, read Liberation by Hearing in the Bardo (The Tibetan Book of the Dead).

Anyway, the point is that suicide does not end suffering. After death we must enter the bardo of becoming, the bardo of rebirth, and its suffering, so those who believe that suicide ends their pain are fools. Not only that but Shakyamuni Buddha tells us that the karmic maturation of the act of suicide is suffering first for eons in hell and then, for most suicides, rebirth as a ghost. Beyond this, they will commit suicide in each of five hundred lifetimes. It is very important, therefore, that we should know the results of our actions and engage in training that gives meaning to this embodiment.

These days some people maintain that, when their situation becomes insupportable and out of control, suicide will solve the problem. Such thinking is an attempt to escape from the suffering of past lives. About such people Sakya Pandita in his Elegant Sayings says,

Although they desire only happiness,
Fools pursue goals that bring only suffering;
Those who are bewitched by devils
Attempt suicide to end their pain.

People who have been bewitched by demons attempt suicide by jumping into fire or water or from a cliff top, says Sakya Pandita, adding that suicide is a grossly foolish act. People who commit suicide do not come only from the underprivileged classes. It occurs right across the social spectrum, including scholars, presidents, and famous performers, and even the wealthy. In general the cause of all these suicides is a strong attachment to belief in the real existence of happiness and suffering as externally based and in the true existence of friends and enemies.

When we cannot accomplish our aims and attain the objects of our desires, when frustration of our intentions becomes the rule, the possibility of committing suicide comes to mind. Though depression, pain, and anger are the root causes of suicide, in reality the heartfelt suffering or deep depression we endure is like the suffering that arises in a dream of the death of our beloved only son. If we compare the suffering found in waking and dreaming experience, we cannot find any difference between them. All suffering and happiness in their own nature are emptiness, but they appear in different ways. Just like a rainbow conjured by a magician, these are illusions that possess the mind and that have no true existence. So no matter what occurs in the mind, pleasure or pain, sickness or health, fame or ignominy, friend, enemy, or beloved partner, understand instantly that what we are experiencing is just an illusion without any true existence. When our relatives or parents die or we hear the story of a suicide, we need not give ourselves over to grief.

According to the Buddhist viewpoint, the karma of suicide is equal to killing the forty-two peaceful deities and fifty-eight wrathful deities that live in our bodies. Consequently, we have to suffer many eons in hell. Even though we are eventually released from hell, because of the previous action of suicide, we will tend to commit suicide many more times. In the great tantra The Rampant Lion, it is said,

Whoever takes his own life
Will suffer suicide In five hundred further lifetimes;
And in this life, all kinds of suffering
Will adventitiously occur.

In general, obtaining human birth in the human realm is very rare, and it is even more unusual to find a human birth with the possibility of hearing the buddha-dharma. In this human body it is possible to obtain liberation and buddhahood. As Shantideva said in Entering the Way of the Bodhisattva,

Rely upon this human body as a boat
To cross the great river of suffering;
Such a boat will be difficult to find in the future.

To escape from the great ocean of birth, old age, sickness, and death, there is no better way than dependence upon the great boat of the human body. The act of putting an end to the precious human body due to adverse circumstances is very stupid. People who can satisfy their desires are very few in this world. Even people who have acquired name and fame have to protect their interests constantly, and they, least of all, attain peace. Actually no person like that is ever contented—it is much better to be satisfied and contented with just what we have.

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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by amanitamusc » Tue May 15, 2018 4:06 am

gescom wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 3:30 am
Suicide is mentioned in the following book, The Great Secret of Mind: Special Instructions on the Nonduality of Dzogchen by Tulku Pema Rigtsal. The following is a compilation of excerpts on the topic.
Further, these days some imagine that suicide is the best way to end suffering, and they actually propagate such notions on websites, in books, and so on. These are works of fools and not at all correct. As it has been said, Those who find no meaning in life, thwarted, seek happiness in death.

Suicide, however, will not end suffering. At the time of death, first there is heavy suffering in the gradual dissolution of the four elements. Happiness and suffering and even temporal duration are just subjective illusions. Happiness can seem eternal; but even the five-hundred-year life span of a god expires in a moment. Likewise a moment of suffering may seem like an eon. When our lives are full of anxiety and we cannot sleep at night, a day may seem like a month. Look at the pain that we endure when we simply try to stop our breath for one minute; each second seems an eternity.

At the time of death, considering only the suffering caused by the cessation of the outer breath, our suffering is immense. Then, immediately after the moment of death, when outer appearances have ceased and the sound of the bardo hits us like thunder, we are terror struck. When rays of heat and light vastly more powerful than the rays of our sun strike our body, we are terrified. With knowledge of the body’s insubstantiality and transparency, we are paralyzed with fear. Although all this fear is mental delusion, the suffering is seven times greater than mundane suffering. Consciousness is now moving like a feather on the wind, without any control at all. Beset by the illusions of the after-death bardo, we must go alone and friendless through the narrow defile of rebirth. To find more about the bardos, read Liberation by Hearing in the Bardo (The Tibetan Book of the Dead).

Anyway, the point is that suicide does not end suffering. After death we must enter the bardo of becoming, the bardo of rebirth, and its suffering, so those who believe that suicide ends their pain are fools. Not only that but Shakyamuni Buddha tells us that the karmic maturation of the act of suicide is suffering first for eons in hell and then, for most suicides, rebirth as a ghost. Beyond this, they will commit suicide in each of five hundred lifetimes. It is very important, therefore, that we should know the results of our actions and engage in training that gives meaning to this embodiment.

These days some people maintain that, when their situation becomes insupportable and out of control, suicide will solve the problem. Such thinking is an attempt to escape from the suffering of past lives. About such people Sakya Pandita in his Elegant Sayings says,

Although they desire only happiness,
Fools pursue goals that bring only suffering;
Those who are bewitched by devils
Attempt suicide to end their pain.

People who have been bewitched by demons attempt suicide by jumping into fire or water or from a cliff top, says Sakya Pandita, adding that suicide is a grossly foolish act. People who commit suicide do not come only from the underprivileged classes. It occurs right across the social spectrum, including scholars, presidents, and famous performers, and even the wealthy. In general the cause of all these suicides is a strong attachment to belief in the real existence of happiness and suffering as externally based and in the true existence of friends and enemies.

When we cannot accomplish our aims and attain the objects of our desires, when frustration of our intentions becomes the rule, the possibility of committing suicide comes to mind. Though depression, pain, and anger are the root causes of suicide, in reality the heartfelt suffering or deep depression we endure is like the suffering that arises in a dream of the death of our beloved only son. If we compare the suffering found in waking and dreaming experience, we cannot find any difference between them. All suffering and happiness in their own nature are emptiness, but they appear in different ways. Just like a rainbow conjured by a magician, these are illusions that possess the mind and that have no true existence. So no matter what occurs in the mind, pleasure or pain, sickness or health, fame or ignominy, friend, enemy, or beloved partner, understand instantly that what we are experiencing is just an illusion without any true existence. When our relatives or parents die or we hear the story of a suicide, we need not give ourselves over to grief.

According to the Buddhist viewpoint, the karma of suicide is equal to killing the forty-two peaceful deities and fifty-eight wrathful deities that live in our bodies. Consequently, we have to suffer many eons in hell. Even though we are eventually released from hell, because of the previous action of suicide, we will tend to commit suicide many more times. In the great tantra The Rampant Lion, it is said,

Whoever takes his own life
Will suffer suicide In five hundred further lifetimes;
And in this life, all kinds of suffering
Will adventitiously occur.

In general, obtaining human birth in the human realm is very rare, and it is even more unusual to find a human birth with the possibility of hearing the buddha-dharma. In this human body it is possible to obtain liberation and buddhahood. As Shantideva said in Entering the Way of the Bodhisattva,

Rely upon this human body as a boat
To cross the great river of suffering;
Such a boat will be difficult to find in the future.

To escape from the great ocean of birth, old age, sickness, and death, there is no better way than dependence upon the great boat of the human body. The act of putting an end to the precious human body due to adverse circumstances is very stupid. People who can satisfy their desires are very few in this world. Even people who have acquired name and fame have to protect their interests constantly, and they, least of all, attain peace. Actually no person like that is ever contented—it is much better to be satisfied and contented with just what we have.
Yea great tell someone who just had both arms blown off that
its ok its just an illusion.Just like a dream.Right.

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Vasana
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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by Vasana » Tue May 15, 2018 8:02 am

amanitamusc wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 4:06 am

Yea great tell someone who just had both arms blown off that
its ok its just an illusion.Just like a dream.Right.

I don't think that was the point. Of course telling anyone without the view in the midst of suffering that it's all an illusion is neither skillfull nor compassionate. Practitioners may be able to make use of such statements but even that is no guarantee.

The point is that if you possess the view that allows a multi life time perspective then ending a particular configuration of physical and mental suffering won't stop more configurations of physical and mental pain from immediately sprouting. If you believe in anihalation at death then suicide almost seems sensible. If you believe or suspect there is a continuum of mind and consciousness beyond death, it does not seem sensible. Given how little science knows about consciousness it seems presumptuous to assume that annihilation is the correct and final understanding.

The hard truth is that without wisdom there is no escape from suffering In samsara. Yet it still wouldn't be skillfull to tell someone with their arms recently blown off that unless they already understood the view.

This is why mind training on bringing adversity on to the path is useful long before adversity strikes, which it inevitably will. Even for non practioners, mind training on skillfull ways of dealing with adversity is useful.

Some people in this world not only deal with adversity but flourish and develop immeasurable insight, empathy and skillfull'means from within it. If we don't like tolerating even minor discomforts let alone heavy suffering, these are the people we should be taking notes from since times of adversity will eventually come around to us too.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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gescom
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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by gescom » Tue May 15, 2018 8:27 am

amanitamusc wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 4:06 am
Yea great tell someone who just had both arms blown off that
its ok its just an illusion.Just like a dream.Right.
And just because you have a physical disability it doesn’t mean you can’t practice Buddhism or that life will only be suffering from then on, or worth giving up on.

I hope the quote helps those who do read it which was my main motivation for posting.

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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by amanitamusc » Tue May 15, 2018 10:36 am

Vasana wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 8:02 am


since times of adversity will eventually come around to us too.
You have no clue!

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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by Vasana » Tue May 15, 2018 11:45 am

amanitamusc wrote: You have no clue!
What do you mean I have no clue? I'm acutely aware that more adversity is inevitable although I don't practice any where near enough to prepare myself. I'm fairly certain we will all experience the pains of death and that many of us will also experience illness, pains, disease and old age too. We will all encounter what we do not find pleasing and be parted from what we do find pleasing. We will all lose family, freinds, possessions, money, health and maybe even our memories. And this can happen long before death.

If you meant to say I have no clue because you or someone you know is experiencing heavy suffering that can't compare to some guy on the internet then I'm sorry to hear that and I hope you don't think I'm trying to side step the issue of how best to interact with someone who is in the midst of heavy suffering. I was just riffing on what I'm currently learning about lojong in relation to illness, adversity, joy and sorrow. The masters who have complete, or at least greater degrees of equanimity towards joy, sorrow, pain and pleasure are those we should be paying attention to. If they can achieve it then so can we if we train as they have.

Dudjom Rinpoche:
  • 'The changing cycle of joy and sorrow, like the changing seasons –

    If this isn’t seen, there is no way to achieve renunciation.

    As a time of suffering will surely come around to me,

    May I truly practice the sublime teachings.'
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by amanitamusc » Tue May 15, 2018 8:07 pm

Vasana wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 11:45 am
amanitamusc wrote: You have no clue!
What do you mean I have no clue? I'm acutely aware that more adversity is inevitable although I don't practice any where near enough to prepare myself. I'm fairly certain we will all experience the pains of death and that many of us will also experience illness, pains, disease and old age too. We will all encounter what we do not find pleasing and be parted from what we do find pleasing. We will all lose family, freinds, possessions, money, health and maybe even our memories. And this can happen long before death.

If you meant to say I have no clue because you or someone you know is experiencing heavy suffering that can't compare to some guy on the internet then I'm sorry to hear that and I hope you don't think I'm trying to side step the issue of how best to interact with someone who is in the midst of heavy suffering. I was just riffing on what I'm currently learning about lojong in relation to illness, adversity, joy and sorrow. The masters who have complete, or at least greater degrees of equanimity towards joy, sorrow, pain and pleasure are those we should be paying attention to. If they can achieve it then so can we if we train as they have.

Dudjom Rinpoche:
  • 'The changing cycle of joy and sorrow, like the changing seasons –

    If this isn’t seen, there is no way to achieve renunciation.

    As a time of suffering will surely come around to me,

    May I truly practice the sublime teachings.'
What i mean is "I" don't have a clue as far as the subtle and extensive
forms of suffering except from my limited meager experience and
what i have heard,contemplated and tried to integrate ever so poorly.

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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by Vasana » Wed May 16, 2018 8:10 am

amanitamusc wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 8:07 pm
Vasana wrote:
Tue May 15, 2018 11:45 am
amanitamusc wrote: You have no clue!
What do you mean I have no clue? I'm acutely aware that more adversity is inevitable although I don't practice any where near enough to prepare myself. I'm fairly certain we will all experience the pains of death and that many of us will also experience illness, pains, disease and old age too. We will all encounter what we do not find pleasing and be parted from what we do find pleasing. We will all lose family, freinds, possessions, money, health and maybe even our memories. And this can happen long before death.

If you meant to say I have no clue because you or someone you know is experiencing heavy suffering that can't compare to some guy on the internet then I'm sorry to hear that and I hope you don't think I'm trying to side step the issue of how best to interact with someone who is in the midst of heavy suffering. I was just riffing on what I'm currently learning about lojong in relation to illness, adversity, joy and sorrow. The masters who have complete, or at least greater degrees of equanimity towards joy, sorrow, pain and pleasure are those we should be paying attention to. If they can achieve it then so can we if we train as they have.

Dudjom Rinpoche:
  • 'The changing cycle of joy and sorrow, like the changing seasons –

    If this isn’t seen, there is no way to achieve renunciation.

    As a time of suffering will surely come around to me,

    May I truly practice the sublime teachings.'
What i mean is "I" don't have a clue as far as the subtle and extensive
forms of suffering except from my limited meager experience and
what i have heard,contemplated and tried to integrate ever so poorly.
All we can do is keep trying to do our best and identify what obstructs from doing our best.

As I said earlier, even a depressed life full of suffering yet with enough patience and perseverance to practice the dharma is infinitely more meaningful than a happy life frittered away on samsaric dharmas.
Three types of human existence

Generally speaking, there are three types of human existence (Tib. མི་ལུས་གསུམ་ , Wyl. mi lus gsum):
  • merely human (Tib. མི་ལུས་ཙམ་པོ་པ་ , Wyl. mi lus tsam po pa), as described in the The Treasury of Precious Qualities, where “human beings are unaware of the defects of samsara, are without regret for their condition and actually crave the transient and futile pleasures of the higher realms. Totally unaware that they should engage in virtue and refrain from evil, they pass their lives sunk in negativity”[1];

    special human existence (Tib. མི་ལུས་ཁྱད་པར་ཅན་ , Wyl. mi lus khyad par can), i.e., in which actions and attitudes oscillate between virtue and negativity; a

    precious human existence (Tib. མི་ལུས་རིན་པོ་ཆེ་ , Wyl. mi lus rin po che).[2]
    ( 8 freedoms and 10 advantages)
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by aussiebloke » Fri May 25, 2018 12:41 am

Regarding the comment of" tell that to someone who's had both arms blown off " , of course this would be a complete catastrophe . But I remember the incredible story of a guy born without legs or arms and only has what he calls a chicken drumstick for an arm. He is an absolute inspiration , positive, lectures to school children on making the most of what opportunities life presents. Has a wife and child etc etc. So , as Buddhism always says , mind is the primary factor. So while life sucks , we get sad and discouraged , nothing goes our way .. still there is a chance to alter our view of things.
I've had experience of suicide. A friend took her life. When a Rinpoche visited my house about eight years later he asked me about her, he described her in detail and told me she was very unhappy. I presume he then benefited her somehow. He has many such stories. Suicide doesn't help , it just makes the suffering even more overwhelming and massive.

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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by amanitamusc » Fri May 25, 2018 11:56 am

aussiebloke wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 12:41 am
Regarding the comment of" tell that to someone who's had both arms blown off " , of course this would be a complete catastrophe . But I remember the incredible story of a guy born without legs or arms and only has what he calls a chicken drumstick for an arm. He is an absolute inspiration , positive, lectures to school children on making the most of what opportunities life presents. Has a wife and child etc etc. So , as Buddhism always says , mind is the primary factor. So while life sucks , we get sad and discouraged , nothing goes our way .. still there is a chance to alter our view of things.
I've had experience of suicide. A friend took her life. When a Rinpoche visited my house about eight years later he asked me about her, he described her in detail and told me she was very unhappy. I presume he then benefited her somehow. He has many such stories. Suicide doesn't help , it just makes the suffering even more overwhelming and massive.
Oh many thanks for your expert opinion?And who is this Rinpoche?

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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by aussiebloke » Sat May 26, 2018 12:06 am

I'm not an expert on anything. If you really want to know his name on me

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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by aussiebloke » Sat May 26, 2018 12:07 am

Pm me , of course.

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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by Malcolm » Sat May 26, 2018 8:59 pm

AlexanderS wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:13 am
What are the karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition?
Vajra hell.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by amanitamusc » Sun May 27, 2018 1:21 am

Malcolm wrote:
Sat May 26, 2018 8:59 pm
AlexanderS wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:13 am
What are the karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition?
Vajra hell.
Would be the same for killing ones parents?

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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by amanitamusc » Sun May 27, 2018 4:44 am

AlexanderS wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:13 am
What are the karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition?
It seems Vajra hell,but remember these are the same people who came
up with the flat earth model so.....don't go over the edge.

Tenma
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Re: Karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition

Post by Tenma » Sun May 27, 2018 4:52 am

amanitamusc wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 4:44 am
AlexanderS wrote:
Mon May 14, 2018 10:13 am
What are the karmic consequences of suicide in the tibetan tradition?
It seems Vajra hell,but remember these are the same people who came
up with the flat earth model so.....don't go over the edge.
Isn't there a symbolism to it?

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