How to raise Wangdu?

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Tenma
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How to raise Wangdu?

Post by Tenma » Wed May 23, 2018 7:02 am

How does one raise wangdu without prayer flags nor empowerment? Just curious.

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heart
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Re: How to raise Wangdu?

Post by heart » Thu May 24, 2018 7:38 pm

Tenma wrote:
Wed May 23, 2018 7:02 am
How does one raise wangdu without prayer flags nor empowerment? Just curious.
You don't need an empowerment, "lung" would be good and you can get that from virtually any lama.
http://all-otr.org/vajrayana/42-wangdu- ... hat-exists

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
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"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

pemachophel
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Re: How to raise Wangdu?

Post by pemachophel » Thu May 24, 2018 8:15 pm

"Raise" wang-du? I've never heard of that. Do you mean "wang-thang?" We usually say one "increases" wang-thang. Increasing wang-thang does not typically involve prayer flags, nor does it require empowerment per se. Doing any practice associated with the Deities of the West/Lotus/[over-]powering Family will increase wang-thang as a natural by-product since that is Their intrinsic associated activity. Of course, when you get to doing the four activities as a lay-tshog or lay-jor (that's after having successfully accomplished the approach and accomplishment [nyen-drub]), you can focus on the activity of [over-]powering which definitely and swiftly increases wang-thang.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

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Re: How to raise Wangdu?

Post by heart » Thu May 24, 2018 8:37 pm

pemachophel wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 8:15 pm
"Raise" wang-du? I've never heard of that. Do you mean "wang-thang?" We usually say one "increases" wang-thang. Increasing wang-thang does not typically involve prayer flags, nor does it require empowerment per se. Doing any practice associated with the Deities of the West/Lotus/[over-]powering Family will increase wang-thang as a natural by-product since that is Their intrinsic associated activity. Of course, when you get to doing the four activities as a lay-tshog or lay-jor (that's after having successfully accomplished the approach and accomplishment [nyen-drub]), you can focus on the activity of [over-]powering which definitely and swiftly increases wang-thang.
He is just confusing raising the lungtha and the wangdu prayer. Honest rookie mistake. :)

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

Tenma
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Re: How to raise Wangdu?

Post by Tenma » Fri May 25, 2018 7:35 am

pemachophel wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 8:15 pm
"Raise" wang-du? I've never heard of that. Do you mean "wang-thang?" We usually say one "increases" wang-thang. Increasing wang-thang does not typically involve prayer flags, nor does it require empowerment per se. Doing any practice associated with the Deities of the West/Lotus/[over-]powering Family will increase wang-thang as a natural by-product since that is Their intrinsic associated activity. Of course, when you get to doing the four activities as a lay-tshog or lay-jor (that's after having successfully accomplished the approach and accomplishment [nyen-drub]), you can focus on the activity of [over-]powering which definitely and swiftly increases wang-thang.
So would the Mahayana practice of reciting "Namo Amitufo," Guna Ratna Dharani, "Namu Kwan Seu Um Bosal," and so on count as raising wangtang as they are of the Lotus Family/Western paradise? What about Manjushri? Or Saraswati?

pemachophel
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Re: How to raise Wangdu?

Post by pemachophel » Fri May 25, 2018 4:16 pm

I am not sure at your age that increasing wang-thang is all that important. Better to study basic Buddhism (sutras, abhidharma, logic, and the outer preliminaries) and work to on developing renunciation (through long-term contemplation of the outer preliminaries), taking Refuge and developing true, abiding faith in the Three Jewels, and generating ever-increasing Bodhicitta. In other words, especially at your age, make haste slowly.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

Tenma
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Re: How to raise Wangdu?

Post by Tenma » Fri May 25, 2018 4:30 pm

pemachophel wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 4:16 pm
I am not sure at your age that increasing wang-thang is all that important. Better to study basic Buddhism (sutras, abhidharma, logic, and the outer preliminaries) and work to on developing renunciation (through long-term contemplation of the outer preliminaries), taking Refuge and developing true, abiding faith in the Three Jewels, and generating ever-increasing Bodhicitta. In other words, especially at your age, make haste slowly.
Wait, then what is wangthang exactly? What use is it for?

Kaung
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Re: How to raise Wangdu?

Post by Kaung » Sat May 26, 2018 7:29 am

pemachophel wrote:
Fri May 25, 2018 4:16 pm
I am not sure at your age that increasing wang-thang is all that important. Better to study basic Buddhism (sutras, abhidharma, logic, and the outer preliminaries) and work to on developing renunciation (through long-term contemplation of the outer preliminaries), taking Refuge and developing true, abiding faith in the Three Jewels, and generating ever-increasing Bodhicitta. In other words, especially at your age, make haste slowly.
A bit off topic but .....Any advice for studying abhidharma with Theravadins?

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Palzang Jangchub
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Re: How to raise Wangdu?

Post by Palzang Jangchub » Sat May 26, 2018 9:13 am

pemachophel wrote:
Thu May 24, 2018 8:15 pm
Doing any practice associated with the Deities of the West/Lotus/[over-]powering Family will increase wang-thang as a natural by-product since that is Their intrinsic associated activity. Of course, when you get to doing the four activities as a lay-tshog or lay-jor (that's after having successfully accomplished the approach and accomplishment [nyen-drub]), you can focus on the activity of [over-]powering which definitely and swiftly increases wang-thang.
Can you speak on lay-tshog and lay-jor in further detail here (and give the Uchen or Wylie for these), or is that more something that needs to be addressed under Buddhist Tantra Talk?
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"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme

དྲིན་ཆེན་རྩ་བའི་བླ་མ་སྐྱབས་རྗེ་མགར་ཆེན་ཁྲི་སྤྲུལ་རིན་པོ་ཆེ་ཁྱེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ།།
རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་མཁས་གྲུབ་ཀརྨ་ཆགས་མེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ། ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོཿ

pemachophel
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Re: How to raise Wangdu?

Post by pemachophel » Sun May 27, 2018 4:21 pm

According to my understanding, lay-jor and lay-tshog are synonymous. Lay (las) means activity, as in the four activities. Most Deity practices in Nyingma (I don't know about Sarma but I assume the same) have three practice sections: nyen-pa (approach; sometimes subdivided into approach and close approach), drub-pa (accomplishment; sometimes subdivided into accomplishment and great accomplishment), and lay-jor (joining into the activities). By doing the approach and accomplishment, one develops the spiritual power of the Deity as confirmed by number, time, and/or signs. But gaining power without using it for the benefit and ease of all sentient beings is missing the point from the Bodhisatva point of view. So typically there will be a third section called lay-jor/lay-tshog where there are one or more practices for applying the power one has attained.

Because different Deities have different functions in terms of Enlightened activities, the lay-jor of different sadhanas will deal with different activities. So, for instance, in the lay-jor section of Dorje Lingpa's Dore Go-thrab/Vajra Armor, there are many different lay-jor on how to deal with different diseases using the Vajra Armor mantra (with or without various samaya substances). These lay-jor are essentially ritual magic using the spiritual power one has previously gained through the approach and accomplishment (primarily through the accomplishment which is what accomplishment means). Without having "accomplished" the Deity/mantra, trying to apply these lay-jor is pretty much useless.

Typically, lay-jor are divided into the four activities of pacifying, enriching/increasing, [over-]powering, and wrathful [subjugation]. Things like stopping hail, making it rain or stopping the rain, stopping an epidemic, healing a particular disease in a specific person, "finding gold," etc. are all types of lay-jor. Lay-jor can also include cursing and killing enemies (for those with huge Bodhicitta, not me). Often the accomplishment of lay-jor include the manifestation of siddhi or so-called paranormal events, such as the tshe-dar/long-life arrow actually growing in length, the amrit boiling, Gesar's whip emitting sparks and flames, and other such manifestations

I'm sorry I can't say more. Lay-jor tend to be sealed with serious secrecy/samaya. Sometimes there will even be the injunction that, after accomplishing a lay-jor, one cannot talk about or reveal it for a certain length of time. Or there may be injunctions about how many times one can transmit the lay-jor after having personally accomplished it, the strictest being to only one other person in one's lifetime. Often there will also be strict injunctions about having to do the retreat in a very secret, remote place.

In my experience, most Western lay practitioners never get to doing the lay-jor. Either they haven't done the necessary practice/retreat or they haven't received the instructions. This is a long way down the road from simply receiving and doing a short Deity gun-khyer/daily practice. But, IME, it is at the heart of Mantrayana. Making such lay-jor function is what make a ngakpa a ngakpa. Until one can make at least one lay-jor actually work, one is only an aspiring ngakpa.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

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