Limits to Redemption in Each Tradition?

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Motova
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Limits to Redemption in Each Tradition?

Post by Motova » Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:13 pm

How long does one have to repair their samaya in each tradition until they're guarenteed to burn in Vajra Hell for millions and billions and trillions of years?

Bon?

Nyingma?

Kaygu?

Sakya?

Gelug?
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:58 pm
The four means of converting beings to the Dharma are generosity (which itself as four aspects: giving material gifts, conferring fearlessness, loving kindness and teaching Dharma), pleasant speech, conduct and setting an example.

Motova
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Re: Limits to Redemption in Each Tradition?

Post by Motova » Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:26 pm

Also what texts specify the time restrictions?
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:58 pm
The four means of converting beings to the Dharma are generosity (which itself as four aspects: giving material gifts, conferring fearlessness, loving kindness and teaching Dharma), pleasant speech, conduct and setting an example.

Tenma
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Re: Limits to Redemption in Each Tradition?

Post by Tenma » Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:08 pm

Motova wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:13 pm
How long does one have to repair their samaya in each tradition until they're guarenteed to burn in Vajra Hell for millions and billions and trillions of years?

Bon?

Nyingma?

Kaygu?

Sakya?

Gelug?
Why care in difference? They all seem to be the same on the hell thing.

Sādhaka
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Re: Limits to Redemption in Each Tradition?

Post by Sādhaka » Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:51 pm

The three year thing is provisional.

Rinpoche wrote that there’s a text where Vajrasattva says you have as many years to purify, as the age you were when you committed the downfall. It is just that after three years it becomes more difficult.

Maybe this only applies to Dzogchen, and/or the Nyingma tradition?

Btw, he didn’t name the text; so if you really want to find out what text says that, you might have to ask him.
Last edited by Sādhaka on Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“...we should try to acquire clairvoyance. Without it, we are like a baby bird whose wings are undeveloped and has not yet grown feathers and remains stuck in its nest, unable to fly. Without clairvoyance, we cannot work for other sentient beings.” — Khunu Lama
“Just as a bird can not fly without both wings,
The welfare of others cannot be accomplished without the higher faculties of perception,
So diligently strive for your own wellbeing, whilst mentally considering the welfare of others.” — Longchenpa

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Aryjna
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Re: Limits to Redemption in Each Tradition?

Post by Aryjna » Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:02 pm

As it is very easy to repair it, it does not seem very important how long the time limit is. Unless someone decides they do not want anything to do with Buddhism for the rest of their lives, in which case they are also transgressing the bodhisattva vow, which is probably going to send you to hell anyway.

Motova
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Re: Limits to Redemption in Each Tradition?

Post by Motova » Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:03 pm

Tenma wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:08 pm
Motova wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:13 pm
How long does one have to repair their samaya in each tradition until they're guarenteed to burn in Vajra Hell for millions and billions and trillions of years?

Bon?

Nyingma?

Kaygu?

Sakya?

Gelug?
Why care in difference? They all seem to be the same on the hell thing.
No, Nyingma seems to not have a limit:
pemachophel wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:53 pm
Pael,

And/or practice the shakpa/confession titled Narak Dong-trug Kan-shag (Dredging the Depths of Hell Fulfillment & Confession). It is said that this shakpa can purify all breeches of samaya regardless of how long ago they were committed. So not to worry. However, should try to get the lung if possible.
Are there anymore practices that claim to have the strength of purification as the Narak Dong-trug Kan-shag?
pemachophel wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:56 pm
just ask a Longchen Nyingthig Lama if He/She has this text. They probably will. Most Longchen Nyingthig practitioners know this by heart.
Is the Longchen Nyingthig the only lineage with this ability?
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:58 pm
The four means of converting beings to the Dharma are generosity (which itself as four aspects: giving material gifts, conferring fearlessness, loving kindness and teaching Dharma), pleasant speech, conduct and setting an example.

Fortyeightvows
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Re: Limits to Redemption in Each Tradition?

Post by Fortyeightvows » Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:25 am

the lam rim says that karma grows. This is one of the reasons why the word 'seed' is used so often.
I have heard something like if a sin is not purified before the next day will greatly increase. I don't remember the source or if it was even a "really buddhist" source. but I think that according the lam rim and seeds growing it makes sense. Could be why so many daily practices, six-session and daily sadhanas always have some purification part.
My father always gives the advice to always make up before you go to bed.

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Aryjna
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Re: Limits to Redemption in Each Tradition?

Post by Aryjna » Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:35 am

Motova wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:03 pm
Tenma wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:08 pm
Motova wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:13 pm
How long does one have to repair their samaya in each tradition until they're guarenteed to burn in Vajra Hell for millions and billions and trillions of years?

Bon?

Nyingma?

Kaygu?

Sakya?

Gelug?
Why care in difference? They all seem to be the same on the hell thing.
No, Nyingma seems to not have a limit:
pemachophel wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:53 pm
Pael,

And/or practice the shakpa/confession titled Narak Dong-trug Kan-shag (Dredging the Depths of Hell Fulfillment & Confession). It is said that this shakpa can purify all breeches of samaya regardless of how long ago they were committed. So not to worry. However, should try to get the lung if possible.
Are there anymore practices that claim to have the strength of purification as the Narak Dong-trug Kan-shag?
pemachophel wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:56 pm
just ask a Longchen Nyingthig Lama if He/She has this text. They probably will. Most Longchen Nyingthig practitioners know this by heart.
Is the Longchen Nyingthig the only lineage with this ability?
https://shop.shangshungfoundation.com/e ... &results=7 ChNNR gives the lung, though it seems not very often.

Motova
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Re: Limits to Redemption in Each Tradition?

Post by Motova » Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:01 am

:hi:
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:58 pm
The four means of converting beings to the Dharma are generosity (which itself as four aspects: giving material gifts, conferring fearlessness, loving kindness and teaching Dharma), pleasant speech, conduct and setting an example.

Pero
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Re: Limits to Redemption in Each Tradition?

Post by Pero » Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:21 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:35 am
pemachophel wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:53 pm
Pael,

And/or practice the shakpa/confession titled Narak Dong-trug Kan-shag (Dredging the Depths of Hell Fulfillment & Confession). It is said that this shakpa can purify all breeches of samaya regardless of how long ago they were committed. So not to worry. However, should try to get the lung if possible.
https://shop.shangshungfoundation.com/e ... &results=7 ChNNR gives the lung, though it seems not very often.
I don't think this is the same practice that Pema Chopel mentioned. Narak konshak is a long text of confession, not sure from whom. BTW, does anyone have this text that they could send me? I don't have the lung but I liked it a lot (if I'm not mixing it up with something else). I'll try to get the lung if I can although I'm not sure how easy it'll be, as I recall it's quite long.

Narag Tongtrug from the link is from Lochen Dharmashri. It doesn't contain a confession, at least not in the form that is in that text, could be that there is also a longer version. Jamgon Kongtrul says in Buddhist Ethics that if you do Narag Tongtrug you purify everything but it's not clear to which one he is reffering to.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Limits to Redemption in Each Tradition?

Post by kalden yungdrung » Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:24 am

Tashi delek,

I am not sure if this helps:

viewtopic.php?f=41&t=28619
The best meditation is no meditation

Motova
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Re: Limits to Redemption in Each Tradition?

Post by Motova » Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:11 am

Motova wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:13 pm
How long does one have to repair their samaya in each tradition until they're guarenteed to burn in Vajra Hell for millions and billions and trillions of years?

Bon?

Nyingma?

Kaygu?

Sakya?

Gelug?
:focus:
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:58 pm
The four means of converting beings to the Dharma are generosity (which itself as four aspects: giving material gifts, conferring fearlessness, loving kindness and teaching Dharma), pleasant speech, conduct and setting an example.

Motova
Posts: 1141
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:05 pm

Re: Limits to Redemption in Each Tradition?

Post by Motova » Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:12 am

Motova wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:26 pm
Also what texts specify the time restrictions?
:focus:
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:58 pm
The four means of converting beings to the Dharma are generosity (which itself as four aspects: giving material gifts, conferring fearlessness, loving kindness and teaching Dharma), pleasant speech, conduct and setting an example.

Motova
Posts: 1141
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:05 pm

Re: Limits to Redemption in Each Tradition?

Post by Motova » Thu Jun 14, 2018 5:03 pm

:hi:
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:58 pm
The four means of converting beings to the Dharma are generosity (which itself as four aspects: giving material gifts, conferring fearlessness, loving kindness and teaching Dharma), pleasant speech, conduct and setting an example.

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Josef
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Re: Limits to Redemption in Each Tradition?

Post by Josef » Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:32 pm

Motova wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:26 pm
Also what texts specify the time restrictions?
Considering that we are on the path of eliminating limitations wouldnt it seem more fruitful to look in that direction?
Unless this is a purely academic pursuit the practices that lead to liberation are a more useful focus.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

Sādhaka
Posts: 189
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Re: Limits to Redemption in Each Tradition?

Post by Sādhaka » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:29 am

For anyone interested, see what is highlighted in yellow here on page 199:

https://books.google.com/books?id=JWuxA ... AHoECAAQAQ

Then after reading page 200 in light of this, we can see that according to this book the practice descended from Padampa Sangye & Machik Labdron is sufficient, even if more than three years have passed.
“...we should try to acquire clairvoyance. Without it, we are like a baby bird whose wings are undeveloped and has not yet grown feathers and remains stuck in its nest, unable to fly. Without clairvoyance, we cannot work for other sentient beings.” — Khunu Lama
“Just as a bird can not fly without both wings,
The welfare of others cannot be accomplished without the higher faculties of perception,
So diligently strive for your own wellbeing, whilst mentally considering the welfare of others.” — Longchenpa

Sādhaka
Posts: 189
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 4:39 pm

Re: Limits to Redemption in Each Tradition?

Post by Sādhaka » Wed Jun 20, 2018 8:14 am

Also, Longchenpa wrote in The Great Chariot that the eighth of the lunar calendar (tomorrow; then also the 10th, two days after) is very powerful for purification (perhaps this about the eighth is a Sarma influence?). And Chokhor-Duchen in July:

https://fpmt.org/media/resources/dharma-dates/

https://fpmt.org/teachers/zopa/advice/sakadawa/
“...we should try to acquire clairvoyance. Without it, we are like a baby bird whose wings are undeveloped and has not yet grown feathers and remains stuck in its nest, unable to fly. Without clairvoyance, we cannot work for other sentient beings.” — Khunu Lama
“Just as a bird can not fly without both wings,
The welfare of others cannot be accomplished without the higher faculties of perception,
So diligently strive for your own wellbeing, whilst mentally considering the welfare of others.” — Longchenpa

Sādhaka
Posts: 189
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2016 4:39 pm

Re: Limits to Redemption in Each Tradition?

Post by Sādhaka » Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:35 pm

Sādhaka wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:29 am
For anyone interested, see what is highlighted in yellow here on page 199:

https://books.google.com/books?id=JWuxA ... AHoECAAQAQ

Then after reading page 200 in light of this, we can see that according to this book the practice descended from Padampa Sangye & Machik Labdron is sufficient, even if more than three years have passed.

Now page 200 is mostly blank and is saying you have reached your preview limit, when it wasn’t when I first posted the link.

Hopefully it isn’t saying that now for you too, because you have to read page 200 for the context of what I wrote above in relation to what is written in the book on page 199.

Though it looks like this book is worth reading from cover to cover....
“...we should try to acquire clairvoyance. Without it, we are like a baby bird whose wings are undeveloped and has not yet grown feathers and remains stuck in its nest, unable to fly. Without clairvoyance, we cannot work for other sentient beings.” — Khunu Lama
“Just as a bird can not fly without both wings,
The welfare of others cannot be accomplished without the higher faculties of perception,
So diligently strive for your own wellbeing, whilst mentally considering the welfare of others.” — Longchenpa

Motova
Posts: 1141
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:05 pm

Re: Limits to Redemption in Each Tradition?

Post by Motova » Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:51 pm

:hi:
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 24, 2014 3:58 pm
The four means of converting beings to the Dharma are generosity (which itself as four aspects: giving material gifts, conferring fearlessness, loving kindness and teaching Dharma), pleasant speech, conduct and setting an example.

User avatar
Josef
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Re: Limits to Redemption in Each Tradition?

Post by Josef » Thu Jun 21, 2018 2:44 am

Motova wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:51 pm
:hi:
Is there something specific you're looking for in these threads?
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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