Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?

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Motova
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Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?

Post by Motova » Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:23 pm

Why would someone who receives an empowerment and fails to practice and maintain their samaya be reborn in Avici Hell along with sentient beings who have committed the five heinous crimes?
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.

Wicked Yeshe
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Re: Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?

Post by Wicked Yeshe » Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:44 pm

Because he or she becomes extremely deluded.

Motova
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Re: Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?

Post by Motova » Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:53 pm

Wicked Yeshe wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:44 pm
Because he or she becomes extremely deluded.
Can you please expand on that?
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.

Wicked Yeshe
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Re: Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?

Post by Wicked Yeshe » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:00 pm

Motova wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:53 pm
Wicked Yeshe wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:44 pm
Because he or she becomes extremely deluded.
Can you please expand on that?
They realize the depth of their karma and creates hell instead of nirvana. It fuddles natural compassion to the point where only hell and retribution exists whereas proper conduct would allow one to enter reality, see things as they are and have all their sins forgiven etc..

One good nembutsu will also acheive that.

Motova
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Re: Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?

Post by Motova » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:10 pm

Wicked Yeshe wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:00 pm
Motova wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:53 pm
Wicked Yeshe wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:44 pm
Because he or she becomes extremely deluded.
Can you please expand on that?
They realize the depth of their karma and creates hell instead of nirvana. It fuddles natural compassion to the point where only hell and retribution exists whereas proper conduct would allow one to enter reality, see things as they are and have all their sins forgiven etc..

One good nembutsu will also acheive that.
What if someone lost their faith in Vajrayana and continued to practice Dharma while letting their samaya deteriorate for the rest of their life?
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.

Wicked Yeshe
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Re: Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?

Post by Wicked Yeshe » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:19 pm

Honen and Shinran did that and they're obviously fine.

Motova
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Re: Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?

Post by Motova » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:24 pm

Wicked Yeshe wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:19 pm
Honen and Shinran did that and they're obviously fine.
:shrug:
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.

Wicked Yeshe
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Re: Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?

Post by Wicked Yeshe » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:33 pm

They both lost faith in vajrayana and obviously abandoned their samaya but were still saved by the grace of Amida. To myself it's a question of pride. Not letting go of old pats on the back related to my past vajrayana practice. Like there is something promising about my life but still it all turns into nembutsu and inner koan stuff. Hard to explain..

Sorry if i confused you. :hi:
Someone else should try to answer your questions.

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Lobsang Chojor
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Re: Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?

Post by Lobsang Chojor » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:48 pm

Wicked Yeshe wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:33 pm
They both lost faith in vajrayana and obviously abandoned their samaya but were still saved by the grace of Amida. To myself it's a question of pride. Not letting go of old pats on the back related to my past vajrayana practice. Like there is something promising about my life but still it all turns into nembutsu and inner koan stuff. Hard to explain..
Honen was a tendai monk so didn't have samaya, because if I understand it correctly tendai only practice the lower tantras.
"Morality does not become pure unless darkness is dispelled by the light of wisdom"
  • Aryasura, Paramitasamasa 6.5
ༀ་ཨ་ར་པ་ཙ་ན་དྷཱི༔ Oṃ A Ra Pa Ca Na Dhīḥ

Wicked Yeshe
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Re: Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?

Post by Wicked Yeshe » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:50 pm

Lobsang Chojor wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:48 pm
Wicked Yeshe wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:33 pm
They both lost faith in vajrayana and obviously abandoned their samaya but were still saved by the grace of Amida. To myself it's a question of pride. Not letting go of old pats on the back related to my past vajrayana practice. Like there is something promising about my life but still it all turns into nembutsu and inner koan stuff. Hard to explain..
Honen was a tendai monk so didn't have samaya, because if I understand it correctly tendai only practice the lower tantras.
I see. Shingon has samaya, though?

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Lobsang Chojor
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Re: Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?

Post by Lobsang Chojor » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:52 pm

Wicked Yeshe wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:50 pm
Lobsang Chojor wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:48 pm
Honen was a tendai monk so didn't have samaya, because if I understand it correctly tendai only practice the lower tantras.
I see. Shingon has samaya, though?
Only the lower tantras were transmitted to Japan, the only commitments they would have would be practice commitments but I don't know how widespread they are in Japanese vajrayana.
"Morality does not become pure unless darkness is dispelled by the light of wisdom"
  • Aryasura, Paramitasamasa 6.5
ༀ་ཨ་ར་པ་ཙ་ན་དྷཱི༔ Oṃ A Ra Pa Ca Na Dhīḥ

Malcolm
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Re: Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:54 pm

Wicked Yeshe wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:33 pm
They both lost faith in vajrayana and obviously abandoned their samaya but were still saved by the grace of Amida.
They did not have samaya in highest yoga tantras since it never existed in Japan.

Malcolm
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Re: Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:55 pm

Motova wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:23 pm
Why would someone who receives an empowerment and fails to practice and maintain their samaya be reborn in Avici Hell along with sentient beings who have committed the five heinous crimes?
failing to practice is not a problem. Failing to maintain samaya, however, is.

You need to review the fourteen root downfalls.

Wicked Yeshe
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Re: Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?

Post by Wicked Yeshe » Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:57 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:54 pm
Wicked Yeshe wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:33 pm
They both lost faith in vajrayana and obviously abandoned their samaya but were still saved by the grace of Amida.
They did not have samaya in highest yoga tantras since it never existed in Japan.
I think i read in "The weaving of mantra" that Shingon entails samaya. I got them mixed up then. :oops:

Wicked Yeshe
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Re: Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?

Post by Wicked Yeshe » Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:00 pm

Lobsang Chojor wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:52 pm
Wicked Yeshe wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:50 pm
Lobsang Chojor wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:48 pm
Honen was a tendai monk so didn't have samaya, because if I understand it correctly tendai only practice the lower tantras.
I see. Shingon has samaya, though?
Only the lower tantras were transmitted to Japan, the only commitments they would have would be practice commitments but I don't know how widespread they are in Japanese vajrayana.
I see. Since i have taken no samaya and turned almost exclusively to the nembutsu i will not speculate more. I do look forward to reading some replies to his questions though.


Malcolm
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Re: Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:10 pm

Wicked Yeshe wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:02 pm
Hey! What is this? :soapbox:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaya#Shingon_Buddhism
Lower tantra samaya.

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Lobsang Chojor
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Re: Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?

Post by Lobsang Chojor » Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:20 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:10 pm
Wicked Yeshe wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:02 pm
Hey! What is this? :soapbox:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaya#Shingon_Buddhism
Lower tantra samaya.
Are they just the same commitments as the bodhisattva vows?
"Morality does not become pure unless darkness is dispelled by the light of wisdom"
  • Aryasura, Paramitasamasa 6.5
ༀ་ཨ་ར་པ་ཙ་ན་དྷཱི༔ Oṃ A Ra Pa Ca Na Dhīḥ

Malcolm
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Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:22 pm

Lobsang Chojor wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:20 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:10 pm
Wicked Yeshe wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:02 pm
Hey! What is this? :soapbox:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaya#Shingon_Buddhism
Lower tantra samaya.
Are they just the same commitments as the bodhisattva vows?
basically.

Wicked Yeshe
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:42 am

Re: Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?

Post by Wicked Yeshe » Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:36 pm

Wonder why they're called samaya then. The mystery gains density..

But you're basically saying that higher samaya is worse to break than the basic precepts? Is it possible to "do a Shinran and Honen" and become a pure land buddhist having taken samaya?

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