Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?

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Malcolm
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Re: Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:55 pm

Wicked Yeshe wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:36 pm

But you're basically saying that higher samaya is worse to break than the basic precepts?
Of course.

pael
Posts: 550
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2013 12:49 pm

Re: Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?

Post by pael » Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:59 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:55 pm
Motova wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:23 pm
Why would someone who receives an empowerment and fails to practice and maintain their samaya be reborn in Avici Hell along with sentient beings who have committed the five heinous crimes?
failing to practice is not a problem. Failing to maintain samaya, however, is.

You need to review the fourteen root downfalls.
Patrul (WOMPT) says HYT samaya takers must do 21 hundred-syllable mantras every day, because everyone makes the fourteen root downfalls every day. Does it matter if I do it twice a year? How many times it is for a short mantra?
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

Wicked Yeshe
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Re: Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?

Post by Wicked Yeshe » Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:19 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:55 pm
Wicked Yeshe wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:36 pm

But you're basically saying that higher samaya is worse to break than the basic precepts?
Of course.
Can you explain why? It seems as if the basic ones are the foundation and samaya is extra. Why is the pyramid upside down so to speak? It would seem that a basic vow not to kill is heavier than let's say a vow not to eat garlic. But theoretically eating garlic can be worse than eating meat? How is it so?

Motova
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Re: Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?

Post by Motova » Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:51 pm

pael wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:59 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:55 pm
Motova wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:23 pm
Why would someone who receives an empowerment and fails to practice and maintain their samaya be reborn in Avici Hell along with sentient beings who have committed the five heinous crimes?
failing to practice is not a problem. Failing to maintain samaya, however, is.

You need to review the fourteen root downfalls.
How many times it is for a short mantra?
For the short Vajrasattva I think it's a full mala.
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.

MiphamFan
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Re: Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?

Post by MiphamFan » Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:07 pm

Dylan, why are you so worried about this? Just follow ChNN's advice: guruyoga helps maintain all samayas.

Motova
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Re: Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?

Post by Motova » Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:16 pm

MiphamFan wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:07 pm
Dylan, why are you so worried about this?
I have a lot of anxiety due to Vajrayana....

There are so many unknowns, surprises, disagreements, and abuses and it all focuses into an anxiety over Vajra Hell.
Last edited by Motova on Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.

pael
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Re: Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?

Post by pael » Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:18 pm

MiphamFan wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:07 pm
Dylan, why are you so worried about this? Just follow ChNN's advice: guruyoga helps maintain all samayas.
Who is Dylan? I took webcast WWT 4 years after my first initiation. Almost instantly I committed root downfall. I then made parrot-mouth confessions monthly. 3 and a half years passed and I received webcast WWT. Dudjom Rinpoche in Perfect Conduct says: if teacher receive disciple who broke samaya (root downfall) over 3 years goes to hell with disciple. And now ChNN is sick.
May all beings be free from suffering and causes of suffering

Wicked Yeshe
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:42 am

Re: Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?

Post by Wicked Yeshe » Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:19 pm

Motova wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:16 pm
MiphamFan wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:07 pm
Dylan, why are you so worried about this?
I have a lot of anxiety due to Vajrayana....
You're not alone. :sage:

Malcolm
Posts: 29105
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:25 pm

Wicked Yeshe wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:19 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:55 pm
Wicked Yeshe wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:36 pm

But you're basically saying that higher samaya is worse to break than the basic precepts?
Of course.
Can you explain why? It seems as if the basic ones are the foundation and samaya is extra. Why is the pyramid upside down so to speak? It would seem that a basic vow not to kill is heavier than let's say a vow not to eat garlic. But theoretically eating garlic can be worse than eating meat? How is it so?
Its not actually your business since you have zero interest in Vajrayāna.

Motova
Posts: 1301
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:05 pm

Re: Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?

Post by Motova » Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:28 pm

Motova wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:16 pm
MiphamFan wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:07 pm
Dylan, why are you so worried about this?
I have a lot of anxiety due to Vajrayana....

There are so many unknowns, surprises, disagreements, and abuses and it all focuses into an anxiety over Vajra Hell.
And then that anxiety makes me not practice, and it turns into a very uncomfortable cycle of fear and resentment.
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.

Wicked Yeshe
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:42 am

Re: Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?

Post by Wicked Yeshe » Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:38 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:25 pm
Wicked Yeshe wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:19 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 3:55 pm


Of course.
Can you explain why? It seems as if the basic ones are the foundation and samaya is extra. Why is the pyramid upside down so to speak? It would seem that a basic vow not to kill is heavier than let's say a vow not to eat garlic. But theoretically eating garlic can be worse than eating meat? How is it so?
Its not actually your business since you have zero interest in Vajrayāna.
True. I was abused by the tibetans and turned back to pure land because of the sheer hipocrisy i saw in the tibetan community. But still i will find out.

Norwegian
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Re: Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?

Post by Norwegian » Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:46 pm

Wicked Yeshe wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:38 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:25 pm
Wicked Yeshe wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:19 pm


Can you explain why? It seems as if the basic ones are the foundation and samaya is extra. Why is the pyramid upside down so to speak? It would seem that a basic vow not to kill is heavier than let's say a vow not to eat garlic. But theoretically eating garlic can be worse than eating meat? How is it so?
Its not actually your business since you have zero interest in Vajrayāna.
True. I was abused by the tibetans and turned back to pure land because of the sheer hipocrisy i saw in the tibetan community. But still i will find out.
You won't. These things are self-secret.
"The Guru is the Buddha, the Guru is the Dharma,
The Guru is the Sangha too,
The Guru is Śrī Heruka.
The All-Creating King is the Guru."

-- The Secret Assembly Tantra

Wicked Yeshe
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:42 am

Re: Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?

Post by Wicked Yeshe » Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:49 pm

I'm protected and sanctioned by higher buddhist forces than demonic lucifer dorje. I will see everything. No relevant question will remain unanswered.

Malcolm
Posts: 29105
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:59 pm

Wicked Yeshe wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:38 pm
But still i will find out.
Not likely.

Sādhaka
Posts: 302
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Re: Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?

Post by Sādhaka » Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:00 pm

Pael,

The three year thing is provisional.

Rinpoche wrote that there’s a text where Vajrasattva says you have as many years to purify, as the age you were when you committed the downfall. It is just that after three years it becomes more difficult.
Last edited by Sādhaka on Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“...we should try to acquire clairvoyance. Without it, we are like a baby bird whose wings are undeveloped and has not yet grown feathers and remains stuck in its nest, unable to fly. Without clairvoyance, we cannot work for other sentient beings.” — Khunu Lama
“Just as a bird can not fly without both wings,
The welfare of others cannot be accomplished without the higher faculties of perception,
So diligently strive for your own wellbeing, whilst mentally considering the welfare of others.” — Longchenpa

Motova
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Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:05 pm

Re: Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?

Post by Motova » Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:00 pm

Wicked Yeshe wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:49 pm
I'm protected and sanctioned by higher buddhist forces than demonic lucifer dorje. I will see everything. No relevant question will remain unanswered.
Ugh, take it somewhere else. :roll:
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.

Wicked Yeshe
Posts: 151
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:42 am

Re: Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?

Post by Wicked Yeshe » Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:03 pm

Motova wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:00 pm
Wicked Yeshe wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:49 pm
I'm protected and sanctioned by higher buddhist forces than demonic lucifer dorje. I will see everything. No relevant question will remain unanswered.
Ugh, take it somewhere else. :roll:
Sure! Peace to all.

Motova
Posts: 1301
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 11:05 pm

Re: Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?

Post by Motova » Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:21 pm

Motova wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:28 pm
Motova wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:16 pm
MiphamFan wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:07 pm
Dylan, why are you so worried about this?
I have a lot of anxiety due to Vajrayana....

There are so many unknowns, surprises, disagreements, and abuses and it all focuses into an anxiety over Vajra Hell.
And then that anxiety makes me not practice, and it turns into a very uncomfortable cycle of fear and resentment.
I'm going to talk to my Lamas and ask around so I can solve this ASAP.

I think the only solution is talking to my Lamas more and practicing more (to increase faith in Vajrayana)... or I can go to sutra Mahayana.
To become a rain man one must master the ten virtues and sciences.

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Vasana
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Re: Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?

Post by Vasana » Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:40 pm

Motova wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:21 pm
Motova wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:28 pm
Motova wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:16 pm


I have a lot of anxiety due to Vajrayana....

There are so many unknowns, surprises, disagreements, and abuses and it all focuses into an anxiety over Vajra Hell.
And then that anxiety makes me not practice, and it turns into a very uncomfortable cycle of fear and resentment.
I'm going to talk to my Lamas and ask around so I can solve this ASAP.

I think the only solution is talking to my Lamas more and practicing more (to increase faith in Vajrayana)... or I can go to sutra Mahayana.
Yes do both and be honest with them. Recognize that Guru Rinpoche isn't seperate from Chenrezig or Amitabah. Also try reading the life stories of previous masters to inspire faith and trust in the Vajrayana. Look even at the current Dalai Lama for example or any teacher who possess the qualities and mental stability we would like to embody in this life let alone beyond this life.

It's good to be apprehensive about commitments but ultimately they're there for our own good.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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heart
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Re: Five Heinous Crimes = Samaya Breaker ?

Post by heart » Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:34 pm

Motova wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:21 pm
Motova wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:28 pm
Motova wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:16 pm


I have a lot of anxiety due to Vajrayana....

There are so many unknowns, surprises, disagreements, and abuses and it all focuses into an anxiety over Vajra Hell.
And then that anxiety makes me not practice, and it turns into a very uncomfortable cycle of fear and resentment.
I'm going to talk to my Lamas and ask around so I can solve this ASAP.

I think the only solution is talking to my Lamas more and practicing more (to increase faith in Vajrayana)... or I can go to sutra Mahayana.
That is a good idea. I general, don't take empowerments from random lamas. Don't take advice from random people you meet in various Sangha's. And, try to relax a little, the aim of Dharma is not to freak people out.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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