Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka

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Mantrik
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Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka

Post by Mantrik » Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:01 pm

Josef wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:32 pm

As an individual who spent many years practicing in Gelug sanghas I can offer the support that there is nothing invalid about the Gelug path.
There is a unique interpretation of Madhyamika, and a unique approach to practice but those things are in no way representative of the isolationism and sectarianism that has plagued the lineage for the past 2 centuries.
Distinguishing between the political quagmire that people like Pabonkha put modern Gelugpas in and the dharma itself is very important.
Exactly. Passing off the Kadampa quagmire as part of pure Gelugpa is problematic, but separating Gelugpa views and interpretations from their history of sectarian oppression has been necessary for many centuries, not just the more recent episodes. One wonders to what extent their view of existence enabled them to feel their actions were pure when crushing the Jonangpas, for example. They simply didn't exist f'rom their own side', after all.
Last edited by Mantrik on Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka

Post by Josef » Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:14 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:01 pm
Josef wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:32 pm

As an individual who spent many years practicing in Gelug sanghas I can offer the support that there is nothing invalid about the Gelug path.
There is a unique interpretation of Madhyamika, and a unique approach to practice but those things are in no way representative of the isolationism and sectarianism that has plagued the lineage for the past 2 centuries.
Distinguishing between the political quagmire that people like Pabonkha put modern Gelugpas in and the dharma itself is very important.
Exactly. Passing off the Kadampa quagmire as part of pure Gelugpa is probelamtic, but separating Gelugpa views and interpretations from their history of sectarian oppression has been necessary for many centuries, not just the more recent episodes. One wonders to what extent their view of existence enabled them to feel their actions were pure when crushing the Jonangpas, for example. They simply didn't exist f'rom their own side', after all.
The extreme isolationism is a great way to solidify views. By demonizing any perspectives other than Tsongkhapa's it becomes easy for actual debate to stagnate. This is what we most often end up seeing in these discussions. Rather than using debate and scholasticism as a tool for learning it it ends up being little more than a defense of a position that simply leads to further isolation.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka

Post by Jeff H » Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:18 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:01 pm
Josef wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:32 pm

As an individual who spent many years practicing in Gelug sanghas I can offer the support that there is nothing invalid about the Gelug path.
There is a unique interpretation of Madhyamika, and a unique approach to practice but those things are in no way representative of the isolationism and sectarianism that has plagued the lineage for the past 2 centuries.
Distinguishing between the political quagmire that people like Pabonkha put modern Gelugpas in and the dharma itself is very important.
Exactly. Passing off the Kadampa quagmire as part of pure Gelugpa is probelamtic, but separating Gelugpa views and interpretations from their history of sectarian oppression has been necessary for many centuries, not just the more recent episodes. One wonders to what extent their view of existence enabled them to feel their actions were pure when crushing the Jonangpas, for example. They simply didn't exist f'rom their own side', after all.
These are really good points! Admittedly, I purposely focus on the teachings I've received (as best I can) without factoring in such contexts as the Gelug predominance in Tibet and the current cult. Major issues to be sure. Nevertheless I remain grateful for the teachings. I'd rather see the bathwater disparaged than the baby. :quoteunquote:
We who are like children shrink from pain but love its causes. - Shantideva

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Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka

Post by Tsongkhapafan » Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:58 pm

Josef wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:32 pm

Distinguishing between the political quagmire that people like Pabonkha put modern Gelugpas in and the dharma itself is very important.
I'm sorry, but the modern problems with the Gelugpa lineage are not the fault of great masters like Trijang Rinpoche and Pabongkha Rinpoche but due to modern politics and the unconventional views of a particularly influential individual. There are hardly any Gelugpas on DW because the reputation of the tradition has been irreparably damaged through these actions, but enough said.

How can anyone gain realizations by dissing their Root and Lineage Gurus? All Gelugpas are connected to these great Masters who were blameless.

I appreciate Jeff H's support but even his post seems to read that Tsongkhapa's teachings are okay for beginners but then we need to practise Mahamudra/Vajrayana/Dzogchen. Maybe I misunderstood your post Jeff, but you seemed to imply that you have to move on from Tsongkhapa's views but actually, his whole tradition is a complete path to enlightenment including profound teachings on Mahamudra and Vajrayana. Many of Tsongkhapa's disciples such as Gyalwa Ensapa and Khedrub Sangye Yeshe attained enlightenment in three years and three months by practising the uncommon Ganden Oral Lineage instructions on Mahamudra and the power of the tradition has not diminished.

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Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka

Post by Josef » Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:00 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:58 pm
Josef wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:32 pm

Distinguishing between the political quagmire that people like Pabonkha put modern Gelugpas in and the dharma itself is very important.


How can anyone gain realizations by dissing their Root and Lineage Gurus? All Gelugpas are connected to these great Masters who were blameless.

They are the source of these difficulties. This is something for the lineage to reconcile.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka

Post by Tsongkhapafan » Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:05 pm

Josef wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:00 pm
Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:58 pm
Josef wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:32 pm

Distinguishing between the political quagmire that people like Pabonkha put modern Gelugpas in and the dharma itself is very important.


How can anyone gain realizations by dissing their Root and Lineage Gurus? All Gelugpas are connected to these great Masters who were blameless.

They are the source of these difficulties. This is something for the lineage to reconcile.
Someone has led you to believe this, but it's simply not true.

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Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka

Post by Josef » Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:10 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:05 pm
Josef wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:00 pm
Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:58 pm




How can anyone gain realizations by dissing their Root and Lineage Gurus? All Gelugpas are connected to these great Masters who were blameless.

They are the source of these difficulties. This is something for the lineage to reconcile.
Someone has led you to believe this, but it's simply not true.
That's an interesting assertion from someone who's frame of reference is known to be influenced by unsavory sources.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka

Post by Mantrik » Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:24 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:58 pm
Josef wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:32 pm

Distinguishing between the political quagmire that people like Pabonkha put modern Gelugpas in and the dharma itself is very important.
I'm sorry, but the modern problems with the Gelugpa lineage are not the fault of great masters like Trijang Rinpoche and Pabongkha Rinpoche but due to modern politics and the unconventional views of a particularly influential individual. There are hardly any Gelugpas on DW because the reputation of the tradition has been irreparably damaged through these actions, but enough said.
Go on, for once name HHDL as the target of your ire. When push comes to shove your view is not Gelugpa and you are not a Gelugpa. Your lot abandoned and 'dissed' that name and Gelugpa as impure and tried to claim to be the true Kadampas. All your views are tainted with that overview so forgive me for finding your defence of the school from which your leader was expelled utterly unconvincing.
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Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
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Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

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Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka

Post by Lobsang Chojor » Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:59 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:58 pm
I'm sorry, but the modern problems with the Gelugpa lineage are not the fault of great masters like Trijang Rinpoche and Pabongkha Rinpoche but due to modern politics and the unconventional views of a particularly influential individual. There are hardly any Gelugpas on DW because the reputation of the tradition has been irreparably damaged through these actions, but enough said.

How can anyone gain realizations by dissing their Root and Lineage Gurus? All Gelugpas are connected to these great Masters who were blameless.
You've definitely shown your opinion of His Holiness the Dalai Lama here. We aren't "dissing" them I respect Pabongkha Rinpoche for his "liberation in the palm of your hand" but think he was wrong about other things.

Pabongkha Rinpoche is far from blameless, perhaps you should read the documents on here and this website.
Mantrik wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:24 pm
Go on, for once name HHDL as the target of your ire. When push comes to shove your view is not Gelugpa and you are not a Gelugpa. Your lot abandoned and 'dissed' that name and Gelugpa as impure and tried to claim to be the true Kadampas. All your views are tainted with that overview so forgive me for finding your defence of the school from which your leader was expelled utterly unconvincing.
:good:
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Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka

Post by Tsongkhapafan » Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:16 pm

It's fine, I understand that everybody has a fixed view about this. It's unreconcilable.

I guess it's the karma of the tradition, mainly due to the 5th Dalai Lama's sectarian suppression of other traditions.
What goes around comes around, religion and politics should never be mixed.

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Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:35 pm

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:16 pm

I guess it's the karma of the tradition, mainly due to the 5th Dalai Lama's sectarian suppression of other traditions.
You need to learn some history.

The Fifth Dalai Lama did not suppress the Karma Kagyus and Jonangpas out of sectarianism. He did so because these two lineages were patronized by the King of Tsang, Karma Tenkyong Wangpo (1606-1642), who, along with the Karma Kamstang in general, was himself personally an committed enemy of the Gelugpa school. In other words, he did so in order to defend the Gelug school.

I suggest you do some reading the history of Tibetan Buddhism before making rash and baseless claims.

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Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka

Post by conebeckham » Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:12 am

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:16 pm
It's fine, I understand that everybody has a fixed view about this. It's unreconcilable.

I guess it's the karma of the tradition, mainly due to the 5th Dalai Lama's sectarian suppression of other traditions.
What goes around comes around, religion and politics should never be mixed.
In some sense, Tibetan Buddhism is far less political than it ever was. The current situation has forever altered the system of patronage which was the bedrock of many historical rivalries in Tibet, going back centuries. You know that the Mongols are a main reason the Geluk rose to political power in Tibet, I hope? At that time, Tibet was really a group of kingdoms. The Great 5th could be said to be the Unifier of Tibet, but this happened only due to the support of the Khans. There have been numerous political power shifts since, with Mongols, Manchus, and Tibetans from various regions all playing a part. Post 1800's and the Rimay Movement in Kham, especially, and more recently due to HHDL's strong denigration of sectarianism, I think there is less politics in Tibetan Dharma. There are some exceptions, of course. Some Tibetans have fostered political actions relating to certain practices, and relating to denigrating HHDL, even going so far as to recruit "Non Ethnic-Tibetan Buddhists" (By this I mean certain Western fringe groups who claim they are not "Tibetan Buddhist at all,") and the CCP is still a player in the Tibetan Power Politics game, using money and resources, and the "Lineage Identity" of various practices, to exert power.
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Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
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Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:36 am

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:58 pm



I'm sorry, but the modern problems with the Gelugpa lineage are not the fault of great masters like Trijang Rinpoche and Pabongkha Rinpoche but due to modern politics and the unconventional views of a particularly influential individual. There are hardly any Gelugpas on DW because the reputation of the tradition has been irreparably damaged through these actions, but enough said.
"Unconventional views" ?? Of an "Individual" ? Can you really believe that?

Let's be clear here, these are not unconventional views of an individual, these are in fact common views of the heads of the tibetan buddhist lineages.

Even within the Gelug tradition, in Addition to HHDL, who is one of the unparalleled crown jewels of Tibet, there are also various learned Geshe, and gelug masters who agree with HHDL.

The other lineage heads, of the Nyingma, Kagyu lineages, Sakya, are also clear about this, which, by extension includes their many, many followers.

Masters of all of these lineages at the very highest calibers, have all been incredibly clear about this topic.

In addition to HHDL, HH Dudjom rinpoche, HH Dilgo khyentse rinpoche, Minling trichen rinpoche, 16th gyalwang karmapa, HH drikung chetsang rinpoche, Jamyang khyentse chokyi lodro, HH sakya trizin rinpoche, HH chadral sangye yeshe dorje rinpoche, and the many lama's who follow the lineages of these respective heads.

So it's good to be clear before you speak, this is hardly an 'unconventional view of an individual'

What is in fact a very unconventional thing, is to promote gyalpo practice, a practice which the many who posses the eyes of wisdom have spoken against.

We are incredibly fortunate, to have such a wise, compassionate, and non-sectarian HHDL on this earth, who the lineage heads revere.
"To have confidence in the teacher is the ultimate refuge." -Rigzin Jigme Lingpa

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Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka

Post by Tsongkhapafan » Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:11 am

Sonam Wangchug wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:36 am
What is in fact a very unconventional thing, is to promote gyalpo practice, a practice which the many who posses the eyes of wisdom have spoken against.
You see gyalpo, I see an emanation of Manjushri Je Tsongkhapa. Many who possess the eye of wisdom have spoken in favour of the practice. I could give you a long list of indisputably great Gelugpa and Sakya masters who are regarded as one with Buddha Vajradhara, so who is right?

You just believe your sources, and I believe mine. But such discussion is pointless because, as I have said, it's irreconcilable. This is a political issue that isn't worth discussing.

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Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka

Post by Mantrik » Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:57 am

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:16 pm
It's fine, I understand that everybody has a fixed view about this. It's unreconcilable.

I guess it's the karma of the tradition, mainly due to the 5th Dalai Lama's sectarian suppression of other traditions.
What goes around comes around, religion and politics should never be mixed.
By which of course you mean that you deplore the actions of your own organisation in screaming abuse at the Dalai Lama in what you now describe as 'political' protests across the world, funded by the Chinese Govt.. Good, now we are getting somewhere.

You see how fragile and useless such a view of existence and emptiness actually is when you mix it with sectarian ghost worship known to cause mental instability. The views you hold are dissolved instantly because of insecurity and anger, which is what happens with the ghost practice you have chosen. Karma ripening indeed.
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Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka

Post by Tsongkhapafan » Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:04 am

Mantrik wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:57 am
now we are getting somewhere.
We really aren't. Back to Dharma......

Image

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Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka

Post by PeterC » Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:40 am

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:04 am
Mantrik wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:57 am
now we are getting somewhere.
We really aren't. Back to Dharma......
We are talking about the Dharma. We haven't left the topic.

Something that can be observed in these recurring debates, TKPF, is that you're very happy bashing Dzogchen on the basis of Tsongkhapa's views (or rather, your reading of them), and people entertain you in these discussions, providing citations and discussing your points. Don't you think you should extend the same courtesy to others when they question the validity of your practices?

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Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka

Post by Mantrik » Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:41 am

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:04 am
Mantrik wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:57 am
now we are getting somewhere.
We really aren't. Back to Dharma......
Great idea. Can we just define if you mean Buddhadharma or the Kadam Dharma in the books written by the shamed and twice-ordained ghost writer you like to quote?

Ok, let's see..........I'll post directly about the topic:

''It is this inner Dharma – the experiences of great compassion, bodhichitta, the wisdom realizing emptiness, and so forth – that is most important and that needs to be protected; outer conditions are of secondary importance.

Although their motivation is good, worldly deities lack wisdom and so sometimes the external help that they give actually interferes with the attainment of authentic Dharma realizations. If they have no Dharma realizations themselves, how can they be Dharma Protectors?''

So, lacking existence from their own side, and lacking any Dharma realisations, how is it possible to rely on a mere appearance to mind of a worldy class of spirit?
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Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka

Post by Tsongkhapafan » Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:55 am

PeterC wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:40 am
Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:04 am
Mantrik wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:57 am
now we are getting somewhere.
We really aren't. Back to Dharma......
We are talking about the Dharma. We haven't left the topic.

Something that can be observed in these recurring debates, TKPF, is that you're very happy bashing Dzogchen on the basis of Tsongkhapa's views (or rather, your reading of them), and people entertain you in these discussions, providing citations and discussing your points. Don't you think you should extend the same courtesy to others when they question the validity of your practices?
PeterC, I'm happy to have the validity of my practices questioned - I've got over twenty years experience of this already and counting! I'm simply following traditional Gelugpa teachings, no controversy from my point of view.

As for entertaining me, we're just discussing Dharma, a difference in views, surely? I'm not here to be entertained.

I do regret criticising Dzogchen in the past as everyone has freedom to choose whatever path they wish to follow and Dzogchen is very popular on Dharma Wheel so please accept my apologies for any offence caused.

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Re: Mipham: Gelug = Svatantrika Madhyamaka

Post by PeterC » Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:17 am

Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:55 am
PeterC wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:40 am
Tsongkhapafan wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:04 am


We really aren't. Back to Dharma......
We are talking about the Dharma. We haven't left the topic.

Something that can be observed in these recurring debates, TKPF, is that you're very happy bashing Dzogchen on the basis of Tsongkhapa's views (or rather, your reading of them), and people entertain you in these discussions, providing citations and discussing your points. Don't you think you should extend the same courtesy to others when they question the validity of your practices?
PeterC, I'm happy to have the validity of my practices questioned - I've got over twenty years experience of this already and counting! I'm simply following traditional Gelugpa teachings, no controversy from my point of view.
Great, then please explain for us in what sense your interpretation of Gelugpa teachings are "traditional". The point being made here by others is that you represent a minority position not particularly consistent with the historic or contemporary Gelugpa mainstream. Rather than addressing that point, you responded that it's all a matter of opinion / it's all politics / there's no point in discussing. If you're willing to elaborate, then please elaborate beyond that.

As for entertaining me, we're just discussing Dharma, a difference in views, surely? I'm not here to be entertained.
There are multiple definitions of "to entertain".

I do regret criticising Dzogchen in the past as everyone has freedom to choose whatever path they wish to follow and Dzogchen is very popular on Dharma Wheel so please accept my apologies for any offence caused.
I didn't ask for, and I don't think anyone needed an apology. You were a long way out of your depth in those discussions, as you had no real knowledge of the texts and traditions you were criticizing. I brought that up because many here did spend time engaging with you on those topics despite that, and I was contrasting that with your hit-and-run argumentative style in this thread.

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