Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

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Wsong0000
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Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Wsong0000 » Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:49 pm

Dear,

Can you help me to understand the differences and similarities between Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Thanks.

Crazywisdom
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Crazywisdom » Sun Jun 10, 2018 12:39 pm

From perspective of the path: very different. That is, if you are thinking, “I heard about this lama giving Mahamudra teachings.” The you’re talking about Kagyu Mahamudra and the teacher is probably a monk and you will get a heavy sutra crossover. However, if you heard about Mahamudra from the perspective of yidam practice and secret mantra, the differences are just a matter of personal taste.


From the perspective of the result: same with a caveat. The Dzogchen tantras even the commentary to Guhyagarbha describe a level of Mahamudra and then go on to describe a self-appearing Dzogchen result. Whether one is beyond the other or they are two way the result may unfold is a matter of endless debates. These debates are on this site. You may get a lot out of them. From my limited experience, seekers have many possible routes to the result. It’s like a choose your own adventure novel where your story line can fork but you end up at the same conclusion. That said, Dzogchen texts spend a lot more time being explicit about the path and result in ways you won’t find elsewhere. Kagyu masters tend to be really great about being gurus, the personal attention type. Dzogchen masters tend to leave it all for the teaching.
I got my Chili Chilaya.

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:51 pm

Wsong0000 wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:49 pm
Dear,

Can you help me to understand the differences and similarities between Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Thanks.
The basis is the same, the clear and empty nature of the mind.

The path is different.

The result is the same.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:29 pm

Wsong0000 wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:49 pm
Dear,

Can you help me to understand the differences and similarities between Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Thanks.
Tashi delek,

Bön Dzogchen has Trekchöd and Thogal
Mahamudra can be seen as equal to Trekchöd, practised in Bön Dzogchen

Teached in Bön Dzogchen by our Yongdzin Rinpoche that if the Path is different, the fruit will be also different.

Hope this helps

Mutsuk Marro
KY.
The best meditation is no meditation

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:43 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:29 pm
Wsong0000 wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:49 pm
Dear,

Can you help me to understand the differences and similarities between Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Thanks.
Tashi delek,

Bön Dzogchen has Trekchöd and Thogal
Mahamudra can be seen as equal to Trekchöd, practised in Bön Dzogchen

Teached in Bön Dzogchen by our Yongdzin Rinpoche that if the Path is different, the fruit will be also different.

Hope this helps

Mutsuk Marro
KY.

This is a mistake -- the only the result can be different is if the basis is different. The basis in Dzogchen, Mahamudra, etc., is the mind.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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rang.drol
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Location: Germany

Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by rang.drol » Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:34 am

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:43 am
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:29 pm
Wsong0000 wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:49 pm
Dear,

Can you help me to understand the differences and similarities between Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Thanks.
Tashi delek,

Bön Dzogchen has Trekchöd and Thogal
Mahamudra can be seen as equal to Trekchöd, practised in Bön Dzogchen

Teached in Bön Dzogchen by our Yongdzin Rinpoche that if the Path is different, the fruit will be also different.

Hope this helps

Mutsuk Marro
KY.

This is a mistake -- the only the result can be different is if the basis is different. The basis in Dzogchen, Mahamudra, etc., is the mind.
That would imply that the realization of mahamudra would equal the attainment of rainbow body, which is uncommon in dzogchen too (to be attained by application of certain specific practices only).
So might we rather say: the realization of dzogchen trekchod is the same as in mahamudra, while the attainment of rainbow body is (or at least manifests) somewhat different?

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by kalden yungdrung » Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:48 am

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:43 am
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:29 pm
Wsong0000 wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:49 pm
Dear,

Can you help me to understand the differences and similarities between Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Thanks.
Tashi delek,

Bön Dzogchen has Trekchöd and Thogal
Mahamudra can be seen as equal to Trekchöd, practised in Bön Dzogchen

Teached in Bön Dzogchen by our Yongdzin Rinpoche that if the Path is different, the fruit will be also different.

Hope this helps

Mutsuk Marro
KY.

This is a mistake -- the only the result can be different is if the basis is different. The basis in Dzogchen, Mahamudra, etc., is the mind.

Dear Malcolm,

Lets start with that what our Bön Yongdzin Rinpoche states is NEVER a mistake!

Not in the beginning, in the middle and the end of his explanation, no mistakes possible.
I would say that is a brutality from your side to state this.
So i and other Bönpos will go 108% for Lopon Las explanation, rather then for your (private) explanation, that would be clear.
Then in case of mistakes, search that first into yourself, would i say.
You never can equal your title of "Lopon", with the title of Yongdzin , which our Lopon Tenzin Namdak has, including his Knowledge / Wisdom and Realizations.
The best meditation is no meditation

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by kalden yungdrung » Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:21 pm

rang.drol wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:34 am
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:43 am
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:29 pm


Tashi delek,

Bön Dzogchen has Trekchöd and Thogal
Mahamudra can be seen as equal to Trekchöd, practised in Bön Dzogchen

Teached in Bön Dzogchen by our Yongdzin Rinpoche that if the Path is different, the fruit will be also different.

Hope this helps

Mutsuk Marro
KY.

This is a mistake -- the only the result can be different is if the basis is different. The basis in Dzogchen, Mahamudra, etc., is the mind.
That would imply that the realization of mahamudra would equal the attainment of rainbow body, which is uncommon in dzogchen too (to be attained by application of certain specific practices only).
So might we rather say: the realization of dzogchen trekchod is the same as in mahamudra, while the attainment of rainbow body is (or at least manifests) somewhat different?
Tashi delek R,

That was a long time ago.
How are you doing ?


Sure Trekchöd = Mahamudra no doubt about it

Mahamudra is NOT Dzogchen ( By Lopon Tenzin Namdak / John Reynolds (Vajranatha) and all other followers)

does not the matter how much others would claim:
"Phyag-chen rdzog-chen dbu-ma chen-po gcig-pa red",
that is,
Mahamudra, Dzogchen and the Great Madhyamaka are all the same.


Mutsuk Marro
KY.
The best meditation is no meditation

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:51 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:48 am
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:43 am
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:29 pm


Tashi delek,

Bön Dzogchen has Trekchöd and Thogal
Mahamudra can be seen as equal to Trekchöd, practised in Bön Dzogchen

Teached in Bön Dzogchen by our Yongdzin Rinpoche that if the Path is different, the fruit will be also different.

Hope this helps

Mutsuk Marro
KY.

This is a mistake -- the only the result can be different is if the basis is different. The basis in Dzogchen, Mahamudra, etc., is the mind.

Dear Malcolm,

Lets start with that what our Bön Yongdzin Rinpoche states is NEVER a mistake!

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu can also never be mistaken, and he clearly explains that the result of mahamudra and dzogchen are the same.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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kalden yungdrung
Posts: 3840
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:40 pm

Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by kalden yungdrung » Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:32 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:51 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:48 am
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:43 am



This is a mistake -- the only the result can be different is if the basis is different. The basis in Dzogchen, Mahamudra, etc., is the mind.

Dear Malcolm,

Lets start with that what our Bön Yongdzin Rinpoche states is NEVER a mistake!

Chogyal Namkhai Norbu can also never be mistaken, and he clearly explains that the result of mahamudra and dzogchen are the same.
Well, you can make clever statements about Chögyal Namkha Norbu Rinpoche and i want to see the text where he states that Chag Gya Chenpo would chi pare to Dzogchen.

Then that Namkhai Rinpoche is not and never mistaken, that is only valid for his followers like you and others here, that is clear, but does not count for others and vice versa.
But that you push here that morality / view, as valid here and as THE way how to see Dzogchen etc. that should be seen more moderately imo.

All in all we can say it is not and it is about is Dzogchen the same as Mahamudra and that sounds for others anyway unbelievable.
The best meditation is no meditation

WeiHan
Posts: 536
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2011 5:50 pm

Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by WeiHan » Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:21 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:29 pm
Wsong0000 wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:49 pm
Dear,

Can you help me to understand the differences and similarities between Dzogchen and Mahamudra?

Thanks.
Tashi delek,

Bön Dzogchen has Trekchöd and Thogal
Mahamudra can be seen as equal to Trekchöd, practised in Bön Dzogchen

Teached in Bön Dzogchen by our Yongdzin Rinpoche that if the Path is different, the fruit will be also different.

Hope this helps

Mutsuk Marro
KY.
Define what is meant by path? Is Mahamudra and Bon Dzogchen considered a different path? Since you specify that there is a Bon Dzogchen, it is to differentiate it from Buddhist Dzogchen or that they just have differing names but are the same path?

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:30 pm

rang.drol wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:34 am
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:43 am
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:29 pm


Tashi delek,

Bön Dzogchen has Trekchöd and Thogal
Mahamudra can be seen as equal to Trekchöd, practised in Bön Dzogchen

Teached in Bön Dzogchen by our Yongdzin Rinpoche that if the Path is different, the fruit will be also different.

Hope this helps

Mutsuk Marro
KY.

This is a mistake -- the only the result can be different is if the basis is different. The basis in Dzogchen, Mahamudra, etc., is the mind.
That would imply that the realization of mahamudra would equal the attainment of rainbow body, which is uncommon in dzogchen too (to be attained by application of certain specific practices only).
So might we rather say: the realization of dzogchen trekchod is the same as in mahamudra, while the attainment of rainbow body is (or at least manifests) somewhat different?
No, also the body of light is realized in the result, mahamudra.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
kalden yungdrung
Posts: 3840
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:40 pm

Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by kalden yungdrung » Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:59 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:30 pm
rang.drol wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:34 am
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:43 am



This is a mistake -- the only the result can be different is if the basis is different. The basis in Dzogchen, Mahamudra, etc., is the mind.
That would imply that the realization of mahamudra would equal the attainment of rainbow body, which is uncommon in dzogchen too (to be attained by application of certain specific practices only).
So might we rather say: the realization of dzogchen trekchod is the same as in mahamudra, while the attainment of rainbow body is (or at least manifests) somewhat different?
No, also the body of light is realized in the result, mahamudra.

Before you go on with your private opinions, we / ego, like to know Namkhai Rinpoches statements on paper regarding Dzogchen = Mahamudra.

At least, for the minimum, we follow and compare the Master´s voice.

Again, for the good order, the statement was that:
- if the Path is different the Fruit is also different.
The best meditation is no meditation

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Malcolm
Posts: 28576
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:02 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:59 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:30 pm
rang.drol wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:34 am


That would imply that the realization of mahamudra would equal the attainment of rainbow body, which is uncommon in dzogchen too (to be attained by application of certain specific practices only).
So might we rather say: the realization of dzogchen trekchod is the same as in mahamudra, while the attainment of rainbow body is (or at least manifests) somewhat different?
No, also the body of light is realized in the result, mahamudra.

Before you go on with your private opinions, we / ego, like to know Namkhai Rinpoches statements on paper regarding Dzogchen = Mahamudra.

At least, for the minimum, we follow and compare the Master´s voice.

Again, for the good order, the statement was that:
- if the Path is different the Fruit is also different.
ChNN states this in Crystal, all Buddhist Dzogchen masters maintain the same perspective as ChNN.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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kalden yungdrung
Posts: 3840
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:40 pm

Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by kalden yungdrung » Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:14 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:02 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:59 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:30 pm


No, also the body of light is realized in the result, mahamudra.

Before you go on with your private opinions, we / ego, like to know Namkhai Rinpoches statements on paper regarding Dzogchen = Mahamudra.

At least, for the minimum, we follow and compare the Master´s voice.

Again, for the good order, the statement was that:
- if the Path is different the Fruit is also different.
ChNN states this in Crystal, all Buddhist Dzogchen masters maintain the same perspective as ChNN.
Which page please ?
The best meditation is no meditation

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Malcolm
Posts: 28576
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:16 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:14 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:02 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 4:59 pm



Before you go on with your private opinions, we / ego, like to know Namkhai Rinpoches statements on paper regarding Dzogchen = Mahamudra.

At least, for the minimum, we follow and compare the Master´s voice.

Again, for the good order, the statement was that:
- if the Path is different the Fruit is also different.
ChNN states this in Crystal, all Buddhist Dzogchen masters maintain the same perspective as ChNN.
Which page please ?
I don’t have book with me, but it is there use index
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
kalden yungdrung
Posts: 3840
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:40 pm

Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by kalden yungdrung » Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:17 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:16 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:14 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:02 pm


ChNN states this in Crystal, all Buddhist Dzogchen masters maintain the same perspective as ChNN.
Which page please ?
I don’t have book with me, but it is there use index
Sorry, no valid answer.
The best meditation is no meditation

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Malcolm
Posts: 28576
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:31 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:17 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:16 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:14 pm


Which page please ?
I don’t have book with me, but it is there use index
Sorry, no valid answer.
Ask some other ChNN student, they will confirm what I say. Right now I am on the road.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
kalden yungdrung
Posts: 3840
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:40 pm

Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by kalden yungdrung » Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:33 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:31 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:17 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:16 pm


I don’t have book with me, but it is there use index
Sorry, no valid answer.
Ask some other ChNN student, they will confirm what I say.
Sorry no valid answer again, maybe we should better stop this discussion, guess its better for you.
In the meanwhile we maintain that if the Path is different the Fruit is also different, if you don´t mind it.
The best meditation is no meditation

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Malcolm
Posts: 28576
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:41 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:33 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:31 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:17 pm


Sorry, no valid answer.
Ask some other ChNN student, they will confirm what I say.
Sorry no valid answer again, maybe we should better stop this discussion, guess its better for you.
In the meanwhile we maintain that if the Path is different the Fruit is also different, if you don´t mind it.
Yes, I am aware of what Bonpos maintain. Buddhists disagree, all of them, including ChNN.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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