Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

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WeiHan
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by WeiHan » Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:39 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:34 pm
WeiHan wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:33 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:29 pm
Check florin's post in page 2 on ChNNR's explanation.
==
CNNr speaking about anuyoga says the following:
"....when they arrive at the ultimate stage or arrival point of their transformation practice, they call it Dzogchen. The ultimate stage or arrival point of Anuyoga, they call Dzogchen. Whereas the arrival point or ultimate stage of all of Mahayoga, that is, all of the path of transformation which proceeds through gradual visualization, is always called Mahamudra. It is clear that this changes nothing since the ultimate point in Mahamudra and Dzogchen are one and the same thing. But the path taken to arrive there, the method used, are not the same............
This is about Anuyoga not Dzogchen
Can you read the bolden part?
[/quote]

Yes, I can. But as I said, and as it says in the post itself, he is talking about Anuyoga. This is a separate vehicle which leads to the state of Dzogchen in the end. It is not the vehicle called Dzogchen.
[/quote]

So Dzogchen is name of a path as well as name of the fruit? The path that can be followed and practiced by non-aryans are practices like those in Rushens...

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Aryjna
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Aryjna » Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:45 pm

WeiHan wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:39 pm
So Dzogchen is name of a path as well as name of the fruit? The path that can be followed and practiced by non-aryans are practices like those in Rushens...
Yes, it seems so. In any case, ChNNR always says that Dzogchen is a separate path.

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:50 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:45 pm
WeiHan wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:39 pm
So Dzogchen is name of a path as well as name of the fruit? The path that can be followed and practiced by non-aryans are practices like those in Rushens...
Yes, it seems so. In any case, ChNNR always says that Dzogchen is a separate path.
Can be, but niot necessarily, and the 17 tantras state one should practice the three inner tantras in union.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Aryjna
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Aryjna » Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:56 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:50 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:45 pm
WeiHan wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:39 pm
So Dzogchen is name of a path as well as name of the fruit? The path that can be followed and practiced by non-aryans are practices like those in Rushens...
Yes, it seems so. In any case, ChNNR always says that Dzogchen is a separate path.
Can be, but niot necessarily, and the 17 tantras state one should practice the three inner tantras in union.
I should have said that he says that it is not necessary to practice other things before you can practice Dzogchen.

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:04 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:10 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:54 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:33 pm
Thee difference between great perfection and great seal is there so much less to talk about.
The only difference seems to be the name
The rest is according some here the same
Then lets forget all names, methods , visions and Traditions
Which Tradition should be then taken here ?

That Tradition which has no erroneous views and is 100% non sectarian, that is what i understood as "valid" reasoning.
Then visualizing a vajra kaya of the deity is the full extent of awareness.
Object and subject meditation ?
That is not known to me as Dzogchen meditation.
It is not Trekchöd and not Thogal awareness.
Good Tantra practice maybe......
The best meditation is no meditation

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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:08 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:04 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:10 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:54 pm


The only difference seems to be the name
The rest is according some here the same
Then lets forget all names, methods , visions and Traditions
Which Tradition should be then taken here ?

That Tradition which has no erroneous views and is 100% non sectarian, that is what i understood as "valid" reasoning.
Then visualizing a vajra kaya of the deity is the full extent of awareness.
Object and subject meditation ?
That is not known to me as Dzogchen meditation.
It is not Trekchöd and not Thogal awareness.
Good Tantra practice maybe......
If there’s object and subject, like thigle thingies, it’s not Deity yoga. It is fantasy.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

WeiHan
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by WeiHan » Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:13 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:56 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:50 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:45 pm


Yes, it seems so. In any case, ChNNR always says that Dzogchen is a separate path.
Can be, but niot necessarily, and the 17 tantras state one should practice the three inner tantras in union.
I should have said that he says that it is not necessary to practice other things before you can practice Dzogchen.
Trechok is the part that is tricky in my opinion. If we are talking about resting in unfabricated awareness, naked and open..that is possible for a non-aryan. But to say that trechok rest in Rigpa, at least in my limited understanding, it is out of reach from a non-aryan because Rigpa in a non-conceptual perception of emptiness which corresponds to path of seeing.
Last edited by WeiHan on Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Crazywisdom
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:13 pm

But thank you for taking so much time out of your supreme path to correct our infinite misconceptions.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:14 pm

Aryjna wrote:

I should have said that he says that it is not necessary to practice other things before you can practice Dzogchen.
Agree according Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche we have no much time left to be busy with Tantra, because Tantra needs many time and Samayas etc. to get result.

Loponla argues therefore that to practice Dzogchen right on is the best way in this live as THE short cut.
Therefore He underlines always that Dzogchen is a separate vehicle and method and therefore is seen in Bön as highest vehicle , whereas we know sure Bön Tantra .

Sutra and Tantra are in Bön always seen in relation to Dzogchen as highest result, we do not know that Tantra or Sutra have the same result as Dzogchen.

The newer Tibetan Traditions came up with these "valid" possibilities........
Maybe as a reason to equal Dzogchen ?
The best meditation is no meditation

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by dzogchungpa » Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:23 pm

It's kind of like that scene in Manhattan:

Image
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:24 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:14 pm
Aryjna wrote:

I should have said that he says that it is not necessary to practice other things before you can practice Dzogchen.
Agree according Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche we have no much time left to be busy with Tantra, because Tantra needs many time and Samayas etc. to get result.

Loponla argues therefore that to practice Dzogchen right on is the best way in this live as THE short cut.
Therefore He underlines always that Dzogchen is a separate vehicle and method and therefore is seen in Bön as highest vehicle , whereas we know sure Bön Tantra .

Sutra and Tantra are in Bön always seen in relation to Dzogchen as highest result, we do not know that Tantra or Sutra have the same result as Dzogchen.

The newer Tibetan Traditions came up with these "valid" possibilities........
Maybe as a reason to equal Dzogchen ?
Or bc they thoroughly comprehended the subject.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

Crazywisdom
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:29 pm

O guess what? Tregchod and Thogal are so slow. There’s a shorter short cut than that boring stuff. A ceremony.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:31 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:29 pm
O guess what? Tregchod and Thogal are so slow. There’s a shorter short cut than that boring stuff. A ceremony.
:good:
The best meditation is no meditation

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:34 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:23 pm
It's kind of like that scene in Manhattan:

Image
It was for sure not based on karma mudra according the doctor who was a Tantrika.
The best meditation is no meditation

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weitsicht
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by weitsicht » Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:41 pm

Is it correct that Dzogchen starts off with DI and develops on the basis of that whereas
Mahamudra offers a gradual part in which the guru is NOT directly and unmistakenly showing the nondualist view to the student?
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:43 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:24 pm
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:14 pm
Aryjna wrote:

I should have said that he says that it is not necessary to practice other things before you can practice Dzogchen.
Agree according Lopon Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche we have no much time left to be busy with Tantra, because Tantra needs many time and Samayas etc. to get result.

Loponla argues therefore that to practice Dzogchen right on is the best way in this live as THE short cut.
Therefore He underlines always that Dzogchen is a separate vehicle and method and therefore is seen in Bön as highest vehicle , whereas we know sure Bön Tantra .

Sutra and Tantra are in Bön always seen in relation to Dzogchen as highest result, we do not know that Tantra or Sutra have the same result as Dzogchen.

The newer Tibetan Traditions came up with these "valid" possibilities........
Maybe as a reason to equal Dzogchen ?
Or bc they thoroughly comprehended the subject.
Who will tell it where their knowledge was based on ?
At least on Dzogchen and Thögal was kicked out as a method, when i understood this well.
The best meditation is no meditation

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Grigoris
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:47 pm

weitsicht wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:41 pm
Is it correct that Dzogchen starts off with DI and develops on the basis of that whereas
Mahamudra offers a gradual part in which the guru is NOT directly and unmistakenly showing the nondualist view to the student?
No, there are traditions of DI in Mahamudra too. Ganges Mahamudra, for example.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:04 pm

Here is the Direct Introduction (Ganga Mahamudra / Indian Mahamudra):

http://unfetteredmind.org/ganges-mahamudra-class/

Can somebody of you point out where this DI is happening ?
The best meditation is no meditation

Crazywisdom
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:06 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:04 pm
Here is the Direct Introduction (Ganga Mahamudra / Indian Mahamudra):

http://unfetteredmind.org/ganges-mahamudra-class/

Can somebody of you point out where this DI is happening ?
It’s invite only.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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heart
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by heart » Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:45 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:47 pm
weitsicht wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:41 pm
Is it correct that Dzogchen starts off with DI and develops on the basis of that whereas
Mahamudra offers a gradual part in which the guru is NOT directly and unmistakenly showing the nondualist view to the student?
No, there are traditions of DI in Mahamudra too. Ganges Mahamudra, for example.
Or

http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-mas ... re-of-mind

http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-mas ... ealization

You will find a bunch here also

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Perfect-Clarit ... 661&sr=1-1

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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