Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Forum for discussion of Tibetan Buddhism. Questions specific to one school are best posted in the appropriate sub-forum.
User avatar
Grigoris
Global Moderator
Posts: 17657
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:11 pm

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:04 pm
Here is the Direct Introduction (Ganga Mahamudra / Indian Mahamudra):

http://unfetteredmind.org/ganges-mahamudra-class/

Can somebody of you point out where this DI is happening ?
Send them a message asking when and where.

Garchen Rinpoche also gives Ganges Mahamudra instructions online via live stream.

There are recordings of the live stream here: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... +mahamudra
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

User avatar
conebeckham
Posts: 4886
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by conebeckham » Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:37 pm

Shangpa Kagyu’s ChagChen Ga’uma has a definite Pointing Out ritual, FWIW—“like a burglar stealing a glimpse.”
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

User avatar
Mantrik
Posts: 1599
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:55 pm
Contact:

Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Mantrik » Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:46 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:37 pm
Shangpa Kagyu’s ChagChen Ga’uma has a definite Pointing Out ritual, FWIW—“like a burglar stealing a glimpse.”
For the sake of argument I'll label methods with DI as 'revelatory' which may need to be followed by 'developmental' practice, and those without it as mainly being 'developmental' alone, as they will have guidance but not DI.

Given the past few posts, is there a Gelug 'revelatory' method?
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

haha
Posts: 196
Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 3:30 pm

Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by haha » Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:49 pm

WeiHan wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:39 pm
You see. Who say there is no thoughts right from the beginning? At the very least,you still use words to give pointing out instructions. You still use words to promote your own lineage and to accuse others.
Sorry, I have no idea.

@Malcolm, I don't know what Sakya pandit said about the Dzogchen.
weitsicht wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:41 pm
Is it correct that Dzogchen starts off with DI and develops on the basis of that whereas
Mahamudra offers a gradual part in which the guru is NOT directly and unmistakenly showing the nondualist view to the student?
Without the pointing out instruction, one cannot practice anuttara deity. If the disciple mind is established on first to third empowerment, mere words of fourth are sufficient. However, different teachings stress different aspects.

In this world hatred never ceases with hatred
With non hatred it ceases, this is the ancient lore.

Upakilesasuttaṃ

Crazywisdom
Posts: 1552
Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 5:48 pm

Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:52 pm

First, get a mirror. Now, get a face. Now, remove the face. Now, you are introduced.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

User avatar
florin
Posts: 1125
Joined: Sun Jan 24, 2010 12:05 pm

Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by florin » Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:02 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:46 pm
conebeckham wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:37 pm
Shangpa Kagyu’s ChagChen Ga’uma has a definite Pointing Out ritual, FWIW—“like a burglar stealing a glimpse.”
For the sake of argument I'll label methods with DI as 'revelatory' which may need to be followed by 'developmental' practice, and those without it as mainly being 'developmental' alone, as they will have guidance but not DI.

Given the past few posts, is there a Gelug 'revelatory' method?
I like "revelatory". Is just that at that time some of us are mostly distracted by our own energy .
The nature of diverse phenomena is non-dual. This means that both pure vision and impure vision are a manifestation of the energy of the primordial state. Even though in reality there is no duality, everything manifests separately. KG

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28238
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:42 pm

WeiHan wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:13 pm
Rigpa in a non-conceptual perception of emptiness which corresponds to path of seeing.

That is not rigpa.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28238
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:43 pm

weitsicht wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:41 pm
Is it correct that Dzogchen starts off with DI and develops on the basis of that whereas
Mahamudra offers a gradual part in which the guru is NOT directly and unmistakenly showing the nondualist view to the student?
No, it is not correct to say this.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Miroku
Posts: 725
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:18 am

Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Miroku » Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:28 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:43 pm
weitsicht wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:41 pm
Is it correct that Dzogchen starts off with DI and develops on the basis of that whereas
Mahamudra offers a gradual part in which the guru is NOT directly and unmistakenly showing the nondualist view to the student?
No, it is not correct to say this.
Is guru in mahamudra giving sorts of DI like in dzogchen at the beginning or is it showing it during the practice based on students experience?
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28238
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:40 pm

Miroku wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:28 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:43 pm
weitsicht wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:41 pm
Is it correct that Dzogchen starts off with DI and develops on the basis of that whereas
Mahamudra offers a gradual part in which the guru is NOT directly and unmistakenly showing the nondualist view to the student?
No, it is not correct to say this.
Is guru in mahamudra giving sorts of DI like in dzogchen at the beginning or is it showing it during the practice based on students experience?
Which Mahamudra are you talking about? The result of the two stages is real mahāmudra. In any empowerment, direct introduction is given during the fourth empowerment.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

User avatar
heart
Posts: 4413
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:55 pm

Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by heart » Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:46 pm

Miroku wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:28 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:43 pm
weitsicht wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:41 pm
Is it correct that Dzogchen starts off with DI and develops on the basis of that whereas
Mahamudra offers a gradual part in which the guru is NOT directly and unmistakenly showing the nondualist view to the student?
No, it is not correct to say this.
Is guru in mahamudra giving sorts of DI like in dzogchen at the beginning or is it showing it during the practice based on students experience?
Yes, this also happens. But as Malcolm says, there are several different styles of Mahamudra.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

User avatar
Aryjna
Posts: 939
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:45 pm

Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Aryjna » Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:47 pm

One of the texts Magnus posted above mentions two different kinds of Mahamudra. http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-mas ... ealization

The Dharma is vast and it has many forms,
But the teachings that bring Buddhahood in a single lifetime
Are the two ultimate systems of Mahāmudrā and Dzogchen.
The Mahāmudrā of bliss and emptiness on the path of means
Is the actual practice of secret mantra,
But those who practise it are few and far between.
The Mahāmudrā of the innate on the path of liberation
Is an easier practice offering great reward at little risk,
And is of benefit to all, regardless of capacity.

User avatar
Malcolm
Posts: 28238
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:19 am

Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:49 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:47 pm
One of the texts Magnus posted above mentions two different kinds of Mahamudra. http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-mas ... ealization

The Dharma is vast and it has many forms,
But the teachings that bring Buddhahood in a single lifetime
Are the two ultimate systems of Mahāmudrā and Dzogchen.
The Mahāmudrā of bliss and emptiness on the path of means
Is the actual practice of secret mantra,
But those who practise it are few and far between.
The Mahāmudrā of the innate on the path of liberation
Is an easier practice offering great reward at little risk,
And is of benefit to all, regardless of capacity.

Sahaja Mahāmudra also requires empowerment, usually termed "the descent of the wisdom vajra." The gradual style of pointing out is appropriate to so-called "Sūtra mahāmudra.," which is mahāmudra in name only.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Miroku
Posts: 725
Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:18 am

Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Miroku » Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:54 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:40 pm
Miroku wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:28 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:43 pm


No, it is not correct to say this.
Is guru in mahamudra giving sorts of DI like in dzogchen at the beginning or is it showing it during the practice based on students experience?
Which Mahamudra are you talking about? The result of the two stages is real mahāmudra. In any empowerment, direct introduction is given during the fourth empowerment.
I meant mahamudra where student engages in shine and later on lhagtong kinda like in dzogchen semde.
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

User avatar
Aryjna
Posts: 939
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:45 pm

Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Aryjna » Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:55 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:49 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:47 pm
One of the texts Magnus posted above mentions two different kinds of Mahamudra. http://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-mas ... ealization

The Dharma is vast and it has many forms,
But the teachings that bring Buddhahood in a single lifetime
Are the two ultimate systems of Mahāmudrā and Dzogchen.
The Mahāmudrā of bliss and emptiness on the path of means
Is the actual practice of secret mantra,
But those who practise it are few and far between.
The Mahāmudrā of the innate on the path of liberation
Is an easier practice offering great reward at little risk,
And is of benefit to all, regardless of capacity.

Sahaja Mahāmudra also requires empowerment, usually termed "the descent of the wisdom vajra." The gradual style of pointing out is appropriate to so-called "Sūtra mahāmudra.," which is mahāmudra in name only.
Is Sahaja Mahamudra the 'Mahamudra of the innate' in that text?

Also, in case anyone knows, I wonder what kind of Mahamudra do the sons of Tulku Urgyen usually transmit.

User avatar
Virgo
Global Moderator
Posts: 3341
Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:47 am
Location: Uni-verse

Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Virgo » Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:43 am

kalden yungdrung wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:41 am
So here ends my discussion with you and i hope not to be engaged in such "sectarian and mistaken"
discussions with you anymore in the future.

KY "the mistaken sectarian Bönpo". :thinking:
It's been nice knowing ya. Adiós.

Kevin...
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


http://caretoclick.com/clean-the-enviro ... -phone-use

User avatar
anjali
Global Moderator
Posts: 1478
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 10:33 pm

Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by anjali » Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:57 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:11 pm
Garchen Rinpoche also gives Ganges Mahamudra instructions online via live stream.
Indeed. In fact, this coming June 30 – July 1 Garchen Rinpoche will be offering pith instruction on the Ganges Mahamudra. Don't know if it will be live streamed, but I'm guessing it will.
Image

Dharma Wheel Terms of Service and Reporting Procedures.
Wherever there is a human being, there is an opportunity for kindness. –-Seneca

PeterC
Posts: 517
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 12:38 pm

Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by PeterC » Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:54 am

Miroku wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:54 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:40 pm
Miroku wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:28 pm


Is guru in mahamudra giving sorts of DI like in dzogchen at the beginning or is it showing it during the practice based on students experience?
Which Mahamudra are you talking about? The result of the two stages is real mahāmudra. In any empowerment, direct introduction is given during the fourth empowerment.
I meant mahamudra where student engages in shine and later on lhagtong kinda like in dzogchen semde.
The pointing out in that form is I think not the same thing as direct introduction. I know opinions will differ on this.

There are teachers who whenever they give instructions on texts of that type always give a related empowerment on the same day, because then you do have the fourth empowerment conferred.

The use of mahamudra to refer to (a) the curriculum developed and propagated by Gampopa, and also (b) the result of the two stages, causes endless confusion. The terminology “sutra mahamudra” seems to add to that confusion.

User avatar
weitsicht
Posts: 266
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2017 8:47 pm
Location: Right Here and Now

Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by weitsicht » Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:04 am

Mantrik wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:46 pm

Given the past few posts, is there a Gelug 'revelatory' method?
Gelugs also practise Mahamudra, but I don't know any specificities
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

User avatar
Mantrik
Posts: 1599
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:55 pm
Contact:

Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Mantrik » Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:34 am

weitsicht wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:04 am
Mantrik wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:46 pm

Given the past few posts, is there a Gelug 'revelatory' method?
Gelugs also practise Mahamudra, but I don't know any specificities
Yes, I used to. :)
I was asking if there is a form of DI 'revelation' in any of the various Gelug practices.
I think Malcolm has answered it - the '4th empowerment'.
http://www.khyung.com

Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

Locked

Return to “Tibetan Buddhism”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 42 guests