Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by heart » Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:03 am

anjali wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:57 am
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:11 pm
Garchen Rinpoche also gives Ganges Mahamudra instructions online via live stream.
Indeed. In fact, this coming June 30 – July 1 Garchen Rinpoche will be offering pith instruction on the Ganges Mahamudra. Don't know if it will be live streamed, but I'm guessing it will.
I received this teaching from Garchen Rinpoche. He said that there are several versions of the Ganges Mahamudra and the text Garchen Rinpoche use actually have some mention of tsa-lung and would easily be categorised as Tantra Mahamudra.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by kalden yungdrung » Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:45 am

Aryjna wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:45 pm
WeiHan wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:39 pm
So Dzogchen is name of a path as well as name of the fruit? The path that can be followed and practiced by non-aryans are practices like those in Rushens...
Yes, it seems so. In any case, ChNNR always says that Dzogchen is a separate path.
:good:

A separate path with separate methods
The best meditation is no meditation

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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by WeiHan » Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:57 am

Mantrik wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:34 am
weitsicht wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:04 am
Mantrik wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:46 pm

Given the past few posts, is there a Gelug 'revelatory' method?
Gelugs also practise Mahamudra, but I don't know any specificities
Yes, I used to. :)
I was asking if there is a form of DI 'revelation' in any of the various Gelug practices.
I think Malcolm has answered it - the '4th empowerment'.
I don't think Gelug believes in DI. Their practice do not depend on the DI in "the 4th empowerment". The view on emptiness has to be prasangika madhyamika as interpreted by Tsongkhapa. Without this, higher tantric practices are seen as useless.

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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Bristollad » Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:00 pm

WeiHan wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:57 am
The view on emptiness has to be prasangika madhyamika as interpreted by Tsongkhapa. Without this, higher tantric practices are seen as useless.
I've heard many times from Gelug teachers that one should have a mahayana understanding of emptiness in order to start the practice of tantra, at least conceptually i.e. Chittamatra or Madhyamaka. They would agree that the best would be an understanding of prasangika (as explained by Je Rinpoche) but not that it is necessarily useless without it.

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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Crazywisdom » Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:13 pm

That’s funny because this view is more readily taught through mantra.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Tsongkhapafan » Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:29 pm

WeiHan wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:57 am
Mantrik wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:34 am
weitsicht wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:04 am


Gelugs also practise Mahamudra, but I don't know any specificities
Yes, I used to. :)
I was asking if there is a form of DI 'revelation' in any of the various Gelug practices.
I think Malcolm has answered it - the '4th empowerment'.
I don't think Gelug believes in DI. Their practice do not depend on the DI in "the 4th empowerment". The view on emptiness has to be prasangika madhyamika as interpreted by Tsongkhapa. Without this, higher tantric practices are seen as useless.
That's correct, there's no DI in Gelugpa. In order to practise Tantra, a firm foundation of the three principal paths to enlightenment is required - renunciation, bodhichitta and the correct view of emptiness. Tantra has no function without being able to meditate on emptiness.

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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Crazywisdom » Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:28 pm

heart wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:03 am
anjali wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 12:57 am
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:11 pm
Garchen Rinpoche also gives Ganges Mahamudra instructions online via live stream.
Indeed. In fact, this coming June 30 – July 1 Garchen Rinpoche will be offering pith instruction on the Ganges Mahamudra. Don't know if it will be live streamed, but I'm guessing it will.
I received this teaching from Garchen Rinpoche. He said that there are several versions of the Ganges Mahamudra and the text Garchen Rinpoche use actually have some mention of tsa-lung and would easily be categorised as Tantra Mahamudra.

/magnus
I’ve received this teaching four times. It’s was stated as belonging to the fourth empowerment. Then one carries on with all sorts of Sadhanas as appropriate for the time.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Crazywisdom » Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:34 pm

most people will have more opportunities for Dzogchen nowadays. And honestly there are so so many ways to advance in Dzogchen. Mahamudra is a bit more limited in terms of transmission and practice. Not so easy to get the big thumbs up from a lama due to being tied up with monk life.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:59 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:34 pm
most people will have more opportunities for Dzogchen nowadays. And honestly there are so so many ways to advance in Dzogchen. Mahamudra is a bit more limited in terms of transmission and practice. Not so easy to get the big thumbs up from a lama due to being tied up with monk life.
The experiential view of Kagyu mahāmudra, Sakya indivisibility of samsara and and nirvana, Dzogchen trekchö, etc., are the same.

The differences in how these schools manifest the body of light aka jñānakāya, lay in differences in their completion stages, but the result is the same.

In terms of advancement, all require intense dedication, years of solitary retreat, and so on in order to manifest buddhahood in one lifetime. All also offer the prospect of liberation at the time of death or in the bardo for those of us who are less diligent.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Crazywisdom » Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:19 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:59 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:34 pm
most people will have more opportunities for Dzogchen nowadays. And honestly there are so so many ways to advance in Dzogchen. Mahamudra is a bit more limited in terms of transmission and practice. Not so easy to get the big thumbs up from a lama due to being tied up with monk life.
The experiential view of Kagyu mahāmudra, Sakya indivisibility of samsara and and nirvana, Dzogchen trekchö, etc., are the same.

The differences in how these schools manifest the body of light aka jñānakāya, lay in differences in their completion stages, but the result is the same.

In terms of advancement, all require intense dedication, years of solitary retreat, and so on in order to manifest buddhahood in one lifetime. All also offer the prospect of liberation at the time of death or in the bardo for those of us who are less diligent.
Sakya is amazing. I took Khön Vajrakīlaya from HHST. I really value it a lot. What I mean to say is one not so self directed w Kagyu.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Malcolm
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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:48 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:19 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:59 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:34 pm
most people will have more opportunities for Dzogchen nowadays. And honestly there are so so many ways to advance in Dzogchen. Mahamudra is a bit more limited in terms of transmission and practice. Not so easy to get the big thumbs up from a lama due to being tied up with monk life.
The experiential view of Kagyu mahāmudra, Sakya indivisibility of samsara and and nirvana, Dzogchen trekchö, etc., are the same.

The differences in how these schools manifest the body of light aka jñānakāya, lay in differences in their completion stages, but the result is the same.

In terms of advancement, all require intense dedication, years of solitary retreat, and so on in order to manifest buddhahood in one lifetime. All also offer the prospect of liberation at the time of death or in the bardo for those of us who are less diligent.
Sakya is amazing. I took Khön Vajrakīlaya from HHST. I really value it a lot. What I mean to say is one not so self directed w Kagyu.

Yes, HHST is a supreme gem of the three realms.

As to self-direction, I guess so. I guess the main difference is that in Sakya, the names mahāmudra and dzogchen are reserved for the result. The Kagyus and Nyingmapas teach them as a paths, respectively.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Crazywisdom » Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:00 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:48 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:19 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 1:59 pm


The experiential view of Kagyu mahāmudra, Sakya indivisibility of samsara and and nirvana, Dzogchen trekchö, etc., are the same.

The differences in how these schools manifest the body of light aka jñānakāya, lay in differences in their completion stages, but the result is the same.

In terms of advancement, all require intense dedication, years of solitary retreat, and so on in order to manifest buddhahood in one lifetime. All also offer the prospect of liberation at the time of death or in the bardo for those of us who are less diligent.
Sakya is amazing. I took Khön Vajrakīlaya from HHST. I really value it a lot. What I mean to say is one not so self directed w Kagyu.

Yes, HHST is a supreme gem of the three realms.

As to self-direction, I guess so. I guess the main difference is that in Sakya, the names mahāmudra and dzogchen are reserved for the result. The Kagyus and Nyingmapas teach them as a paths, respectively.
I agree. And one point it seems most experienced practitioners I’ve heard have come around to the realization that in the end the result and path are indivisible.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:24 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:00 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:48 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:19 pm


Sakya is amazing. I took Khön Vajrakīlaya from HHST. I really value it a lot. What I mean to say is one not so self directed w Kagyu.

Yes, HHST is a supreme gem of the three realms.

As to self-direction, I guess so. I guess the main difference is that in Sakya, the names mahāmudra and dzogchen are reserved for the result. The Kagyus and Nyingmapas teach them as a paths, respectively.
I agree. And one point it seems most experienced practitioners I’ve heard have come around to the realization that in the end the result and path are indivisible.
Basis, path and result are indeed indivisible. This is a key point of Sakya teaching.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Vasana » Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:48 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:24 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:00 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:48 pm



Yes, HHST is a supreme gem of the three realms.

As to self-direction, I guess so. I guess the main difference is that in Sakya, the names mahāmudra and dzogchen are reserved for the result. The Kagyus and Nyingmapas teach them as a paths, respectively.
I agree. And one point it seems most experienced practitioners I’ve heard have come around to the realization that in the end the result and path are indivisible.
Basis, path and result are indeed indivisible. This is a key point of Sakya teaching.
Doesn't that distinction apply more so to the view from the level of the basis?

I.e - Even if the path and result are indivisible, the strength and stability of ones recognition at the time of the path is not the same as the stability of the fruition kayas of complete Buddhahood. Otherwise surely everyone would realize the full capacity of result the moment they entered the path.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by smcj » Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:15 pm


Basis, path and result are indeed indivisible. This is a key point of Sakya teaching.
Doesn't that distinction apply more so to the view from the level of the basis?

I.e - Even if the path and result are indivisible, the strength and stability of ones recognition at the time of the path is not the same as the stability of the fruition kayas of complete Buddhahood. Otherwise surely everyone would realize the full capacity of result the moment they entered the path.
I like the analogy that there’s no such thing as being “a little bit pregnant.”
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Crazywisdom » Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:30 pm

Vasana wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:48 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:24 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:00 pm


I agree. And one point it seems most experienced practitioners I’ve heard have come around to the realization that in the end the result and path are indivisible.
Basis, path and result are indeed indivisible. This is a key point of Sakya teaching.
Doesn't that distinction apply more so to the view from the level of the basis?

I.e - Even if the path and result are indivisible, the strength and stability of ones recognition at the time of the path is not the same as the stability of the fruition kayas of complete Buddhahood. Otherwise surely everyone would realize the full capacity of result the moment they entered the path.
It’s quite possible. Dzogchen has amazing qualities. If one takes time, there’s no problem.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Snowbear » Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:39 pm

Vasana wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:14 pm
Snowbear wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:55 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:51 pm
Chogyal Namkhai Norbu can also never be mistaken
That's just not true.

Can we leave this kind of thing alone? Talking about our own or other's teachers is not going to help this discussion and is a slippery slope.
Likewise to kalden's claim that "our Bön Yongdzin Rinpoche states is NEVER a mistake!"

That's just not true either.

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Differences

Post by Rinchen Samphel » Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:47 pm

Recently i have noticed that people have talked about Dzogchen, Mahamudra, and Madhyamaka as if they each are their own path, have their own understanding and so on.

I am going to try to word this the best i can.

I understand that Mahamudra and Dzogchen (according to Buddhism) are different paths that have the same result. But i have also seen that Madhyamaka is spoken of as if it is a different path, or understanding, like Dzogchen and Mahamudra are.

Is Mahamudra and Dzogchen technically higher, with their view, than Madhyamaka?

And to get to the fundamental point, basically, are all three of these (pre-Buddhahood) technically different? So, is Madhyamaka the view of Sutra and Mahamudra and Dzogchen the view of Tantra?

Thanks, i hope my questions makes sense.

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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by WeiHan » Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:00 pm

Is rainbow body a proven thing? How come I don't see mainstream media reporting it?

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Re: Dzogchen and Mahamudra: differences and similarities

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:34 pm

Ok, break time.
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