Achi Chökyi Drolma and Bön

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Summers
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Achi Chökyi Drolma and Bön

Post by Summers » Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:27 am

Was Achi Chökyi Drolma originally a Bön diety? She is depicted in the style of one, which is interesting considering Jigten Sumgön's anti-Bön stance.

Miroku
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Re: Achi Chökyi Drolma and Bön

Post by Miroku » Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:17 am

It could be possible that she is in some way a buddhist version of such deity. However, according to the stories she is Jigten Sumgon's grandmother and an emanation of Tara (Achi = grandma, Drolma = Tara). Maybe the reason why she looks like a Bön deity is because she originated in Tibet and not in India like other buddhist deities.
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

Summers
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Re: Achi Chökyi Drolma and Bön

Post by Summers » Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:01 am

Miroku wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:17 am
However, according to the stories she is Jigten Sumgon's grandmother and an emanation of Tara (Achi = grandma, Drolma = Tara). Maybe the reason why she looks like a Bön deity is because she originated in Tibet and not in India like other buddhist deities.
This is possible.
Though there are goddesses in Bön with Drolma in their names aswell. Jigten Sumgön's mother was also a Bönpo.

Miroku
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Re: Achi Chökyi Drolma and Bön

Post by Miroku » Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:48 am

Summers wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:01 am
Miroku wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:17 am
However, according to the stories she is Jigten Sumgon's grandmother and an emanation of Tara (Achi = grandma, Drolma = Tara). Maybe the reason why she looks like a Bön deity is because she originated in Tibet and not in India like other buddhist deities.
This is possible.
Though there are goddesses in Bön with Drolma in their names aswell. Jigten Sumgön's mother was also a Bönpo.
Yes, but Achi was a great grandmother from the father's side and she was for sure buddhist just like her son. She was also supposed to be prophecised in chakrasamvara tantra. Don't know really maybe Palzang will know more, he is the local Drikung scholar :D.

Quite honestly what matters the most is her compassion and activity which are without boundaries.
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

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kalden yungdrung
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Re: Achi Chökyi Drolma and Bön

Post by kalden yungdrung » Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:29 pm

Summers wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:01 am
Miroku wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:17 am
However, according to the stories she is Jigten Sumgon's grandmother and an emanation of Tara (Achi = grandma, Drolma = Tara). Maybe the reason why she looks like a Bön deity is because she originated in Tibet and not in India like other buddhist deities.
This is possible.
Though there are goddesses in Bön with Drolma in their names aswell. Jigten Sumgön's mother was also a Bönpo.
Tashi delek,

In Drikung Kagyu are the most converted Bönpos, that is well known in Bön, many have Bön family names. In Nyingma are also ver married Bönpos and they have a mix "Buddhism".

Kyungpo Näldjor , the founder of Shangpa Kagyu was also Bönpo etc.

All not a problem because we have and know that also in Bön Sarma.
Important is that they have Compassion and Wisdom on their Path to Enlightenment.
These are the very basics of the Tibetan 5 Traditions, with all their different Lineages and since after 1967, they are all very well befriended. In the west the war is over, a good side of the Exodus.
The best meditation is no meditation

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Malcolm
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Re: Achi Chökyi Drolma and Bön

Post by Malcolm » Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:00 pm

Summers wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:27 am
Was Achi Chökyi Drolma originally a Bön diety? She is depicted in the style of one, which is interesting considering Jigten Sumgön's anti-Bön stance.
No, she was Jigten Sumgon's great grandmother.

http://www.rigdzindharma.org/achi-chokyi-drolma.html
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Summers
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Re: Achi Chökyi Drolma and Bön

Post by Summers » Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:11 pm

Miroku wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:17 am
Yes, but Achi was a great grandmother from the father's side and she was for sure buddhist just like her son. She was also supposed to be prophecised in chakrasamvara tantra. Don't know really maybe Palzang will know more, he is the local Drikung scholar :D.

Quite honestly what matters the most is her compassion and activity which are without boundaries.
It still doesn't explain why Achi is depicted like a Bön diety while other Tibetan figures like Machig Labdrön, Yeshe Tsogyal, are not. Kristen Kail Muldowney in her thesis paper written on Achi talks about the Bön iconography though I don't remember if she tracked down a reason for it. I have to read it again.

I'm asking out of curiosity, lol.

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Palzang Jangchub
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Re: Achi Chökyi Drolma and Bön

Post by Palzang Jangchub » Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:29 pm

Miroku wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:17 am
Yes, but Achi was a great grandmother from the father's side and she was for sure buddhist just like her son. She was also supposed to be prophecised in chakrasamvara tantra. Don't know really maybe Palzang will know more, he is the local Drikung scholar :D.
Miroku, you flattered you... I would never put myself on the level of a true scholar, but appreciate the compliment and take it as a sign that my small bit of university training combined with my natural curiosity has at least been helping others learn about the lineage :twothumbsup:
kalden yungdrung wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:29 pm
In Drikung Kagyu are the most converted Bönpos, that is well known in Bön, many have Bön family names. In Nyingma are also ver married Bönpos and they have a mix "Buddhism".
I would agree with this, though I just found it out recently. I've seen a translator whose family name was Bhuchung, which has Bön origins. Even one of our most illustrious teachers, Lho Ontul Rinpoche, holds the lineage of some Bön Dharma, part of which is because his current incarnation's family line was Bön at the outset.
Ontül Rinpoche's family lineage is called Göpe, or also Pebön Thogtrul, which is one of the thirteen noble family lineages which are again explained as stemming from the inner lineage of Lodan Nyingpo, who is one of the four ancient Tulkus of Bön religion, before Padmasambhava's time.

http://www.dharma-media.org/ratnashripj ... ontul.html
I have several Drikungpa friends here in North America who have an affinity for Bön because they've found accessing Bönpo centers more easy, and because it has enriched their practice.

My "Chocho" (elder brother) in Boudha, Kathmandu, Nepal is a Tamang Drikungpa thangka artist. He and the others at his art school definitely see no problem in painting Bön lamas and deities. You can see a lot of his work on his personal FB page, and I've been encouraging him to put his stuff on Instagram lately.
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1149907832
Summers wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 1:11 pm
It still doesn't explain why Achi is depicted like a Bön diety while other Tibetan figures like Machig Labdrön, Yeshe Tsogyal, are not. Kristen Kail Muldowney in her thesis paper written on Achi talks about the Bön iconography though I don't remember if she tracked down a reason for it. I have to read it again.
Kristen, a friend and fellow classmate of mine from our FSU days, is the only scholar who has treated Achi so thoroughly as far as I know. She is also a student of Drupön Thinley Nyingpo Rinpoche Rinpoche, and used him as one of her main sources, so her master's thesis should be seen as a nice synthesis of scholarly and practical knowledge.

Perhaps some more readings on Achi would help elucidate this issue for you. I have found the following site very helpful, as it contains several resources (not the least of which is Achi's life story): http://drigung.com/translations.html
Image

"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme

དྲིན་ཆེན་རྩ་བའི་བླ་མ་སྐྱབས་རྗེ་མགར་ཆེན་ཁྲི་སྤྲུལ་རིན་པོ་ཆེ་ཁྱེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ།།
རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་མཁས་གྲུབ་ཀརྨ་ཆགས་མེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ། ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོཿ

Summers
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Re: Achi Chökyi Drolma and Bön

Post by Summers » Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:49 am

Palzang Jangchub wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:29 pm
Kristen, a friend and fellow classmate of mine from our FSU days, is the only scholar who has treated Achi so thoroughly as far as I know. She is also a student of Drupön Thinley Nyingpo Rinpoche Rinpoche, and used him as one of her main sources, so her master's thesis should be seen as a nice synthesis of scholarly and practical knowledge.

Perhaps some more readings on Achi would help elucidate this issue for you. I have found the following site very helpful, as it contains several resources (not the least of which is Achi's life story): http://drigung.com/translations.html
Hi Palzang, thank you for the information and resources. I'll certainly check them out.

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