Western Monastic - reasons why she left

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Grigoris
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Re: Western Monastic - reasons why she left

Post by Grigoris » Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:10 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:01 pm
Well, he didn't tell him to stop gambling either.
Don't talk nonsense. He didn't tell him not to stick red hot pokers in his eyes either...
The point is, chill.
I am chilled.

The point is: Don't use Dharma to justify your afflictions.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Western Monastic - reasons why she left

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:14 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:10 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:01 pm
Well, he didn't tell him to stop gambling either.
Don't talk nonsense. He didn't tell him not to stick red hot pokers in his eyes either...
The point is, chill.
I am chilled.

The point is: Don't use Dharma to justify your afflictions.

Very good, but may I suggest that you are insufficiently chilled?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Western Monastic - reasons why she left

Post by Grigoris » Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:15 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:14 pm
Very good, but may I suggest that you are insufficiently chilled?
No! :tongue:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Western Monastic - reasons why she left

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:17 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:15 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:14 pm
Very good, but may I suggest that you are insufficiently chilled?
No! :tongue:

OK.


:focus:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Western Monastic - reasons why she left

Post by Grigoris » Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:21 pm

The point is that for a monastic (or anybody) to have the economic/material means to practice they have to accure the cause and conditions for these means. There is no point bitching about not having money when we know very well what the causes and conditions for having money in this (and future) lifetime(s) are: Generosity.

If you limit yourself to a single lifetime view (as Westerners tend to), then all you will end up doing is bitching about the circumstances in this lifetime (as I do continuously). Move the target further back and aim higher.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Western Monastic - reasons why she left

Post by Crazywisdom » Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:39 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:21 pm
The point is that for a monastic (or anybody) to have the economic/material means to practice they have to accure the cause and conditions for these means. There is no point bitching about not having money when we know very well what the causes and conditions for having money in this (and future) lifetime(s) are: Generosity.

If you limit yourself to a single lifetime view (as Westerners tend to), then all you will end up doing is bitching about the circumstances in this lifetime (as I do continuously). Move the target further back and aim higher.
Here’s a point from Dzogchen: knowledge is merit. Before one undertakes any profession one must train. I’m also a trial lawyer. I gamble with life. But I trained for years and years. It goes without saying if one wants to be a pro gambler one would have to find a teacher and train (until your eyes bleed).

Now my point with this example was IF one uses ones adult mind one can devise solutions that go beyond praying. Forgive me if I somehow ran my mouth off mistakenly believing I was addressing Vajrayana people, which children have no business toying with.

Come to think of it wouldn’t it be so cool if there were a forum for vajrayana practitioners to discuss Tantra online? One can only dream.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Re: Western Monastic - reasons why she left

Post by Crazywisdom » Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:54 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:55 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:39 pm
And to be clear no amount of pujas will train you for a job. You have to gain the wisdom of knowledge and experience in worldly affairs. Pujas help will patience and stuff.
Pujaris make a pretty decent living in some places... ;)
Everybody’s got a scam.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Re: Western Monastic - reasons why she left

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:17 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:39 pm
It goes without saying if one wants to be a pro gambler one would have to find a teacher and train (until your eyes bleed).

Now my point with this example was IF one uses ones adult mind one can devise solutions that go beyond praying.

A zen laundering business might make a good choice for many ngakpas, but you'd have to train until your colors DON'T bleed.


(ducks)
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Western Monastic - reasons why she left

Post by Crazywisdom » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:24 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:17 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:39 pm
It goes without saying if one wants to be a pro gambler one would have to find a teacher and train (until your eyes bleed).

Now my point with this example was IF one uses ones adult mind one can devise solutions that go beyond praying.

A zen laundering business might make a good choice for many ngakpas, but you'd have to train until your colors DON'T bleed.


(ducks)
Haha yeah. My lama once suggested I open a Tibetan trinket shop. I laughed my ass off.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Re: Western Monastic - reasons why she left

Post by Grigoris » Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:07 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:39 pm
Here’s a point from Dzogchen: knowledge is merit.
You can try and jive me with Dharma justifications all you like, what I want is ringside seats when you try to jive Yama.
Come to think of it wouldn’t it be so cool if there were a forum for vajrayana practitioners to discuss Tantra online? One can only dream.
No, it would be awful. It would either be a samaya breaking fest, or every second response would be: "Ask you teacher."
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Crazywisdom
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Re: Western Monastic - reasons why she left

Post by Crazywisdom » Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:40 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:07 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:39 pm
Here’s a point from Dzogchen: knowledge is merit.
You can try and jive me with Dharma justifications all you like, what I want is ringside seats when you try to jive Yama.
Come to think of it wouldn’t it be so cool if there were a forum for vajrayana practitioners to discuss Tantra online? One can only dream.
No, it would be awful. It would either be a samaya breaking fest, or every second response would be: "Ask you teacher."
Dude you’re so judgmental. I must be desperate for human contact to keep coming back here just to be berated day after damn day.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Re: Western Monastic - reasons why she left

Post by buddhagirl » Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:25 pm

Given the mindset required for day-trading, it doesn't seem very compatible with Dharma practice. Actual jobs where you leave home & interact with other humans require positive attitudes & behaviours such as teamwork, a pleasant demeanour, being responsive & non-judgemental when dealing with clients/customers particularly when you're advocating on their behalf.

Whereas daytrading seems based on avarice, pure & simple - even if such endeavours are conducted in the service of one's Dharma practice, surely the seeds of desiring to accumulate wealth would be prominent in one's daily motivation.

It's always amused and horrified me how Westerners, particularly Americans, manage to merge the Dharma into their capitalist worldview. Looking at you, Shambhala and Rigpa!

Roughly a handful of years ago the Dalai Lama reiterated his support for communism as a political system that distributes abundance in a more equitable fashion - people at the Vajradhatu Sun seemed bewildered at this and wrote an editorial, if memory serves, along the lines of "what on earth is the Dalai Lama talking about, we don't get it, do you?"

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Re: Western Monastic - reasons why she left

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:06 am

buddhagirl wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:25 pm
Given the mindset required for day-trading, it doesn't seem very compatible with Dharma practice. Actual jobs where you leave home & interact with other humans require positive attitudes & behaviours such as teamwork, a pleasant demeanour, being responsive & non-judgemental when dealing with clients/customers particularly when you're advocating on their behalf.

Whereas daytrading seems based on avarice, pure & simple - even if such endeavours are conducted in the service of one's Dharma practice, surely the seeds of desiring to accumulate wealth would be prominent in one's daily motivation.

It's always amused and horrified me how Westerners, particularly Americans, manage to merge the Dharma into their capitalist worldview. Looking at you, Shambhala and Rigpa!

Roughly a handful of years ago the Dalai Lama reiterated his support for communism as a political system that distributes abundance in a more equitable fashion - people at the Vajradhatu Sun seemed bewildered at this and wrote an editorial, if memory serves, along the lines of "what on earth is the Dalai Lama talking about, we don't get it, do you?"
The problem with centrally planned economies, is well, centralized planning. Markets can be regulated but not planned.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Western Monastic - reasons why she left

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:49 am

Crazywisdom wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:40 pm
Dude you’re so judgmental. I must be desperate for human contact to keep coming back here just to be berated day after damn day.
Berated? Judgemental? All I have said is that gambling does not seem to be considered in a good light in Buddhism. If you identify so closely with what you do, that you consider what I say as a personal affront, well, what can I say?

Maybe knowledge isn't always merit??? :tongue:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Western Monastic - reasons why she left

Post by Crazywisdom » Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:56 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:49 am
Crazywisdom wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:40 pm
Dude you’re so judgmental. I must be desperate for human contact to keep coming back here just to be berated day after damn day.
Berated? Judgemental? All I have said is that gambling does not seem to be considered in a good light in Buddhism. If you identify so closely with what you do, that you consider what I say as a personal affront, well, what can I say?

Maybe knowledge isn't always merit??? :tongue:
Here’s what I mean. It seems I always have to respond to some shit you say. But you’re right. I just realized I only come here out of boredom. All my troubles begin there. So I’ll just deal with that. Thank you.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Re: Western Monastic - reasons why she left

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Jul 10, 2018 10:56 pm

Just saw this on FB and it reminded me of this thread:

rich.jpg
rich.jpg (24.08 KiB) Viewed 256 times


The missing 'l' is somewhat disturbing, but it's still kind of funny.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Western Monastic - reasons why she left

Post by PadmaVonSamba » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:53 am

I have a friend in Taiwan who I met when he was studying in the United States. He used to call me "the monk" even though I wasn't. But I lived in a tiny room, did lots of odd jobs for cash (lived day to day on less than $6000 a year --this was during the 1980s) and my day began with meditation, Tibetan sadhana practice, and much of my time spent studying whatever dharma books I could find. I lived a very simple life. Lots of free time!

I have had many opportunities to be ordained but have always avoided it because in a way, it separates you from society too much. I also discovered that I look totally ridiculous in robes. This fact doesn't matter to me personally, but I think that if people look at you and think you are just another weirdo on the street corner, just another kind of Hare Krishna, how can you really be of benefit to them? Conversely, many people who know me, old friends, found my interest in buddhism interesting, they saw something in my behavior and it sparked their interest, and they have become dharma students themselves. I'm not trying to toot my own horn. I'm sure that many people on this forum can say the same thing. If you set a good example, and someone mentions about you, "Oh, by the way, did you know he (or she) is a buddhist?" it's not unusual for people to then think, "Huh...I wonder what that's really about" and they look into it, start meditating, and so on. Actually, there are texts that mention this very thing. The language is more flowery, something like, "he whose mind is calm will be honored by kings and devas, blah blah blah", but the point is the same.

Buddhist monasticism is not part of the western tradition, and, just as one has to be very selective when finding a teacher, one also has to research what they are getting into (and out of) by becoming a monk. In one or few traditions I think it's actually relatively easy to get ordained. In the Thai tradition, males are expected to be ordained and spend at least three days as monks. I once read an article, I think it was in Tricycle about 20 years ago, which made the point that until Buddhism in the west establishes ceremonial traditions for life's three big events, birth, marriage, and death, that it will always remain just an exotic spiritual trip. If there is any truth to this, then it is reflected in the story told by this author. The lack of serious support for western "buddhist clergy" is the result of the expendability of monastics. "Do we really need monks and nuns?" The answer is probably yes, but why is something that has to be identified and stressed.

What I find very curious about this story is that I know a few western born lamas, and their training began with an intensive three year retreat, where they had to study and learn so much, theory, ritual, etc. aside from just meditation practice, I find it really strange that the author seemed so unprepared.

I'm glad the author found the right niche. Karma unfolds that way.

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