Western Monastic - reasons why she left

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Ayu
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Re: Western Monastic - reasons why she left

Post by Ayu » Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:32 am

Miroku wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:26 pm
.... However, maybe since you have Gelug background you could tell us here more how it works as I believe Gelug has probably most focus on monastics.
All I know: it's difficult. People try to sort out financial sponsors before they ordain. Some have spared money from good jobs in their former life - then they donate it to an organazition of lay people who take care financially of the ordained. Some say they want to ordain but they can't because of having no funds.
There are some good lay people who work in building up an organization that supports monks and nuns in general. It is starting since two years.
I think this problem with western monastics not having funds, could be partly elevated if there were bigger organizations that would get funded by people and monastics would get money from that organization and maybe spend some time developing it and running it among other things. What would the organization offer in exchange for the money I don't know, maybe pujas, maybe ritual items, not sure. But there are ofcourse many problems with it.
I believe there would be need for either huge sangha running it or several smaller sanghas running it together with lay memebers as a part of the organization maybe as some sort of balance. Well enough of brainstorming. :D
Yes, people from Hamburg try to start something like this in northern Germany. Our community is not small but I don't know, if they can fix the problem with donations only or if they have to find further ideas for fundraising.


Another point is education - I think it is very good, when nuns as well get supported for studies. I think its wonderful that the Geshema-education started and that there are going to be more female Geshes.

In our certain sangha there are less western monks but many nuns. The monks are allowed to disrobe three times, while the women cannot get their robes back once they left. This seems to bring the result that all the nuns stay - whatever challenge they have to face - while the monks disrobe easier and they do not come back.

It seems to be a great psychological difficulty, if an ordained has to work for his/her livelyhood. They have to switch daily between two worlds and then sometimes they give up and disrobe.
I have decided to stick with love.
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kausalya
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Re: Western Monastic - reasons why she left

Post by kausalya » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:23 pm

shaunc wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 11:36 pm
Translating mantras/sutras is also a great idea.
If something has to be read or spoken, either orally or silently it's a definite advantage if you understand what it is that you're reading/saying.
Bolded for emphasis.

Mantras aren't words in the conventional sense. Making them into "just words" that are relatable on a purely intellectual level and nothing more would be a profound mistake (IMO).

Some mantras do have levels of meaning that include conventional explanations, in which case that meaning can be given by/requested from the teacher in the student's native tongue. This already happens. Ditto with sutra translation.

If a student is interested, but has problems with the cultural "trappings," this just means they need an appropriate explanation. Avoiding the obstacle isn't a way to help people attain complete understanding.

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Re: Western Monastic - reasons why she left

Post by kausalya » Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:03 pm

Sorry for the double-post, but I may have something else to add...

Others have raised excellent questions about the role of monastics in relation to society as a whole, etc. I won't rehash that.

In the context of the Dharma per se, and communicating the path to westerners, I believe a new outward manifestation isn't needed. All it is is window dressing, but if you change too much around based on nothing more than what you think will appeal to people, you risk frigging up the works. The Dharma doesn't need help; sentient beings need help, and we should be clear about what is required.

Put another way, the Dharma can't be improved --- only our understanding of it, achieved through earnest engagement with the teachings and a continuous application of them to our phenomenal/experiential world(s).

To be effective, teachers need to focus on the timeless nature of the Dharma. They should ideally have a thorough grounding in experience with lay life, in addition to receiving authentic transmissions, and so on. The strength of their own practice is the only measure of how well they will be able to bridge the gap for modern students.

It's not a question of lowering the bar so that more people can join the club, but being attentive and providing relevant advice according to the needs of those who do show up. In fact, a bit of a barrier helps to sort out which students are sincere vs. which ones aren't ready.

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Re: Western Monastic - reasons why she left

Post by buddhagirl » Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:33 pm

Tenzin Palmo describes the economic insecurity faced by Western and other nuns living outside the Himalayan orbit: http://tenzinpalmo.com/jetsunma-talks-a ... ayan-nuns/

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Re: Western Monastic - reasons why she left

Post by Crazywisdom » Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:34 am

We have a tantric tradition inthe West now and tantrics have nifty tricks, sorcery and wizardry, in the mundane sense, like a computer wiz, etc. I feel this is what the Western vajrayana people have to do. No one is coming to the rescue guys. If you want to practice to realization better manifest some of that good old American ingenuity and make it happen. Those mimicking the ngakpas and stuff are going to be hungry. We can be more like King Jah than Kukkuraja. There’s nothing wrong with going with the tantric tantrics who have silks on. We don’t have to be like the dharma bums of Tibet. That’s not what the tantras say is a limit. Rather, we can soak in our luxurious lives a bit. I highly recommend getting into those mandalas w samayas for swift realization and practice as much as possible even when working, keep the mandala and mantra in mind. This is doable. Then you know find consorts train your kids, etc.
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Re: Western Monastic - reasons why she left

Post by Aryjna » Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:42 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:34 am
We have a tantric tradition inthe West now and tantrics have nifty tricks, sorcery and wizardry, in the mundane sense, like a computer wiz, etc. I feel this is what the Western vajrayana people have to do. No one is coming to the rescue guys. If you want to practice to realization better manifest some of that good old American ingenuity and make it happen. Those mimicking the ngakpas and stuff are going to be hungry. We can be more like King Jah than Kukkuraja. There’s nothing wrong with going with the tantric tantrics who have silks on. We don’t have to be like the dharma bums of Tibet. That’s not what the tantras say is a limit. Rather, we can soak in our luxurious lives a bit. I highly recommend getting into those mandalas w samayas for swift realization and practice as much as possible even when working, keep the mandala and mantra in mind. This is doable. Then you know find consorts train your kids, etc.
Unless someone is already wealthy, it is a fantasy thinking you can make as much progress while working and having all kinds of commitments, in comparison to spending decades in a hermitage.

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Re: Western Monastic - reasons why she left

Post by Crazywisdom » Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:45 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:42 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:34 am
We have a tantric tradition inthe West now and tantrics have nifty tricks, sorcery and wizardry, in the mundane sense, like a computer wiz, etc. I feel this is what the Western vajrayana people have to do. No one is coming to the rescue guys. If you want to practice to realization better manifest some of that good old American ingenuity and make it happen. Those mimicking the ngakpas and stuff are going to be hungry. We can be more like King Jah than Kukkuraja. There’s nothing wrong with going with the tantric tantrics who have silks on. We don’t have to be like the dharma bums of Tibet. That’s not what the tantras say is a limit. Rather, we can soak in our luxurious lives a bit. I highly recommend getting into those mandalas w samayas for swift realization and practice as much as possible even when working, keep the mandala and mantra in mind. This is doable. Then you know find consorts train your kids, etc.
Unless someone is already wealthy, it is a fantasy thinking you can make as much progress while working and having all kinds of commitments, in comparison to spending decades in a hermitage.
Maybe. But who can be in a hermitage really? As an example w a few thousand bucks. Less than you need for a 3yr retreat, so long as one can learn, one can make money gambling for a few hundred bucks a day w a few hours a night. More than enough to sustain.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Re: Western Monastic - reasons why she left

Post by Aryjna » Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:48 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:45 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:42 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:34 am
We have a tantric tradition inthe West now and tantrics have nifty tricks, sorcery and wizardry, in the mundane sense, like a computer wiz, etc. I feel this is what the Western vajrayana people have to do. No one is coming to the rescue guys. If you want to practice to realization better manifest some of that good old American ingenuity and make it happen. Those mimicking the ngakpas and stuff are going to be hungry. We can be more like King Jah than Kukkuraja. There’s nothing wrong with going with the tantric tantrics who have silks on. We don’t have to be like the dharma bums of Tibet. That’s not what the tantras say is a limit. Rather, we can soak in our luxurious lives a bit. I highly recommend getting into those mandalas w samayas for swift realization and practice as much as possible even when working, keep the mandala and mantra in mind. This is doable. Then you know find consorts train your kids, etc.
Unless someone is already wealthy, it is a fantasy thinking you can make as much progress while working and having all kinds of commitments, in comparison to spending decades in a hermitage.
Maybe. But who can be in a hermitage really?
I don't know, nowadays probably only someone with ideal circumstances. But I think it may be possible to manage to spend many years in retreat if you are willing to do it. Obviously not in Europe and the US where for some reason the prices are ridiculous, unless you can do it in your own house or land.

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Re: Western Monastic - reasons why she left

Post by Crazywisdom » Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:49 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:48 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:45 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:42 pm


Unless someone is already wealthy, it is a fantasy thinking you can make as much progress while working and having all kinds of commitments, in comparison to spending decades in a hermitage.
Maybe. But who can be in a hermitage really?
I don't know, nowadays probably only someone with ideal circumstances. But I think it may be possible to manage to spend many years in retreat if you are willing to do it. Obviously not in Europe and the US where for some reason the prices are ridiculous, unless you can do it in your own house or land.
See what I added in prev comment
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Re: Western Monastic - reasons why she left

Post by Aryjna » Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:54 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:49 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:48 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:45 pm


Maybe. But who can be in a hermitage really?
I don't know, nowadays probably only someone with ideal circumstances. But I think it may be possible to manage to spend many years in retreat if you are willing to do it. Obviously not in Europe and the US where for some reason the prices are ridiculous, unless you can do it in your own house or land.
See what I added in prev comment
:D I am not so sure it is that easy. What do you mean learn gambling? There are thousands of people wasting every penny they have hoping to win money this way.

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Re: Western Monastic - reasons why she left

Post by Crazywisdom » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:00 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:54 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:49 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:48 pm


I don't know, nowadays probably only someone with ideal circumstances. But I think it may be possible to manage to spend many years in retreat if you are willing to do it. Obviously not in Europe and the US where for some reason the prices are ridiculous, unless you can do it in your own house or land.
See what I added in prev comment
:D I am not so sure it is that easy. What do you mean learn gambling? There are thousands of people wasting every penny they have hoping to win money this way.
The markets provide some measures one can rely. But hey, tantra can be crazy. I make all my major life decisions by rolling dice. So.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Re: Western Monastic - reasons why she left

Post by Crazywisdom » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:02 pm

Just an example by the way. My point is to get creative and make time and money can create ones own auspicious conditions.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Re: Western Monastic - reasons why she left

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:11 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:02 pm
Just an example by the way. My point is to get creative and make time and money can create ones own auspicious conditions.

Dude, you should totally set up a day trading school for tantrikas.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Western Monastic - reasons why she left

Post by Aryjna » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:12 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:02 pm
Just an example by the way. My point is to get creative and make time and money can create ones own auspicious conditions.
The problem with that is that first of all you need to put your time and effort into it, and you may not feel like it if you are not interested in samsaric activities. Also, it will not work if you do not have the necessary karmic causes. You may end up trying to become rich instead of practicing until you eventually keel over.

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Re: Western Monastic - reasons why she left

Post by Crazywisdom » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:12 pm

In a way what we are doing is solving a professional problem. What I did, and I spend most hours in a day in practice somehow, was: find methods with samayas that promise very swift liberation, like Drolod or Guhyagarbha wrathful mandala, Chetsün Nyingthig, etc., practice them in short and intense 24/h reteats; I have a professional education so I situated myself to make maximum profits with minimal time mainly by delegating; so I work one or two hours a day, usually less; learned this market gambling so I can work even less; got an open minded consort; I have an apartment perfectly situated for certain methods; and I almost never leave; learn to be super well budgeted. That’s about it.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Re: Western Monastic - reasons why she left

Post by Crazywisdom » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:14 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:12 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:02 pm
Just an example by the way. My point is to get creative and make time and money can create ones own auspicious conditions.
The problem with that is that first of all you need to put your time and effort into it, and you may not feel like it if you are not interested in samsaric activities. Also, it will not work if you do not have the necessary karmic causes. You may end up trying to become rich instead of practicing until you eventually keel over.
Tantra is walking on a razor’s edge. No one said it was easy.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

Crazywisdom
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Re: Western Monastic - reasons why she left

Post by Crazywisdom » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:14 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:11 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:02 pm
Just an example by the way. My point is to get creative and make time and money can create ones own auspicious conditions.

Dude, you should totally set up a day trading school for tantrikas.
I might. It’s something I’ve been working very diligently to master. Something interesting I learned from pro traders is they usually are really cool under pressure; usually are very honest and self aware; patient and generous. Many of them seem like natural Buddhas to me.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Re: Western Monastic - reasons why she left

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:25 pm

Crazywisdom wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:14 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:11 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:02 pm
Just an example by the way. My point is to get creative and make time and money can create ones own auspicious conditions.

Dude, you should totally set up a day trading school for tantrikas.
I might. It’s something I’ve been working very diligently to master. Something interesting I learned from pro traders is they usually are really cool under pressure; usually are very honest and self aware; patient and generous. Many of them seem like natural Buddhas to me.

I'm fairly sure that if they had that kind of thing back in the day there would have been at least one day trader in that list of mahasiddhas.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: Western Monastic - reasons why she left

Post by Crazywisdom » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:27 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:25 pm
Crazywisdom wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:14 pm
dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:11 pm



Dude, you should totally set up a day trading school for tantrikas.
I might. It’s something I’ve been working very diligently to master. Something interesting I learned from pro traders is they usually are really cool under pressure; usually are very honest and self aware; patient and generous. Many of them seem like natural Buddhas to me.

I'm fairly sure that if they had that kind of thing back in the day there would have been at least one day trader in that list of mahasiddhas.
I’m pretty sure one of them was a gambler
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Re: Western Monastic - reasons why she left

Post by Aryjna » Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:27 pm

This reminds me of the usual story with the hermit and Dorje Legpa who found a piece of fat in his soup because that was all the karmic causes he had for wealth. Such problems should be easily remedied with one mandala offering, but I have yet to see this addressed somewhere. Unless it is implied that you cannot expect causes to be ready to come to fruition even through practice if some time has not passed.

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