Which consciousnesses exist in the bardo?

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Coëmgenu
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Which consciousnesses exist in the bardo?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:03 pm

We're dead, so I am assuming that the sense-media, in their traditional understanding, either do not apply or apply very differently.

Which consciousnesses are operative before embodiment?
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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Malcolm
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Re: Which consciousnesses exist in the bardo?

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:04 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:03 pm
We're dead, so I am assuming that the sense-media, in their traditional understanding, either do not apply or apply very differently.

Which consciousnesses are operative before embodiment?
all, since we have complete aggregates, sense bases, and sense elements in the bardo.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Which consciousnesses exist in the bardo?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:35 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:04 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:03 pm
We're dead, so I am assuming that the sense-media, in their traditional understanding, either do not apply or apply very differently.

Which consciousnesses are operative before embodiment?
all, since we have complete aggregates, sense bases, and sense elements in the bardo.
Is there form in the bardo?
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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Malcolm
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Re: Which consciousnesses exist in the bardo?

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:41 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:35 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:04 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:03 pm
We're dead, so I am assuming that the sense-media, in their traditional understanding, either do not apply or apply very differently.

Which consciousnesses are operative before embodiment?
all, since we have complete aggregates, sense bases, and sense elements in the bardo.
Is there form in the bardo?
There is a subtle body. See the Kosha. Chapter three, near the beginning.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Which consciousnesses exist in the bardo?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:41 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:41 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:35 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:04 pm


all, since we have complete aggregates, sense bases, and sense elements in the bardo.
Is there form in the bardo?
There is a subtle body. See the Kosha. Chapter three, near the beginning.
mṛtyupapattibhavayorantarā bhavatīha yaḥ|
gamyadeśānupetatvānnopapanno'ntarābhavaḥ||
Intermediate existence, which inserts itself between existence at death and existence at birth, not having arrived at the location where it should go, cannot be said to be born.

vrīhisantānasādharmyādavicchinnabhavodbhavaḥ|
pratibimbamasiddhatvādasāmyāccānidarśanam||
Being similar to the series of rice, existence does not reproduce itself after having been interrupted. The existence of the reflection is not proved; should it be proved, the reflection is not similar; hence it does not serve as an example

sahaikatra dvayābhāvāt asantānād dvayodayāt|
kaṇṭhokteścāsti gandharvāt pañcokteḥ gatisūtrataḥ||
For two things do not exist in the same spot. For it does not form a series. For it arises from two causes. The intermediate being is called by its name. It is the Gandharva. An intermediate being is proved by the text relative to the Five. And by the Sūtra of the gatis.

ekākṣepādasāvaiṣyatpūrvakālabhavākṛtiḥ|
sa punarmaraṇātpūrva upapattikṣaṇātparaḥ||
Being projected by the same action that projects the pūrvakālabhava, an intermediate being has the form of this being, that is, the being of the realm of rebirth to come after his conception. This is before death, after conception.

sajātiśuddhadivyākṣidṛśyaḥ karmarddhivegavān|
sakalākṣaḥ apratighavān anivartyaḥ sa gandhabhuk||
He is seen by the creatures of his class, and by the divine eye. He is filled with the impetus of the supernormal power of action. His organs are complete. He cannot be turned away. It eats odors.

viparyastamatiryāti gatideśaṁ riraṁsayā|
gandhasthānābhikāmo'nyaḥ ūrdhvapādastu nārakaḥ||
The mind (mati) troubled by defilements, goes, through its desire for sex, to the place of its realm of rebirth. Others go in their desire for odor or in their desire for residence. 1Beings in hell hang from their feet.

saṁprajānan viśatyekaḥ tiṣṭhatyapyaparaḥ aparaḥ|
niṣkrāmatyapi sarvāṇi mūḍho'nyaḥ nityamaṇḍajaḥ||
The first enter in full consciousness; the second, further, dwell in full consciousness; the third, further, leave in full consciousness; the fourth accomplishes all these steps with a troubled mind. Beings born from eggs are always of this last class.


"Being projected by the same action that projects the pūrvakālabhava, an intermediate being has the form of this being." <-- does this mean that, for the sake of example, a being to be embodied as a cat has something of a form of a cat in the bardo? Or an asura, to use a more conventional example?
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Which consciousnesses exist in the bardo?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:04 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 5:04 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 4:03 pm
We're dead, so I am assuming that the sense-media, in their traditional understanding, either do not apply or apply very differently.

Which consciousnesses are operative before embodiment?
all, since we have complete aggregates, sense bases, and sense elements in the bardo.
This is because we are a gandharva (although my previous question in the previous post still stands, I am much more ignorant than I might try to appear, much much more). I read about these in the Pāli Canon. In EBT studies, there is a somewhat wave-making article by the Venerable Śrāvaka Anālayo entitled Rebirth and the Gandhabba. I've seen it treated in places like SuttaCentral as something of rebel scholarship, properly challenging Theravāda orthodoxy that there is no intermediate stage and rebirth-and-gross-embodiment is immediate.

Imagine, a bunch of EBT scholars accidentally stumbling across alleged "Mahāyāna" teachings and not knowing it. Accepting it without realizing. Conceits about Mahāyāna still intact.

Not to paint all scholars with the same brush...
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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Malcolm
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Re: Which consciousnesses exist in the bardo?

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:05 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:41 pm

"Being projected by the same action that projects the pūrvakālabhava, an intermediate being has the form of this being." <-- does this mean that, for the sake of example, a being to be embodied as a cat has something of a form of a cat in the bardo? Or an asura, to use a more conventional example?
Yes.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Which consciousnesses exist in the bardo?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:08 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:05 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:41 pm

"Being projected by the same action that projects the pūrvakālabhava, an intermediate being has the form of this being." <-- does this mean that, for the sake of example, a being to be embodied as a cat has something of a form of a cat in the bardo? Or an asura, to use a more conventional example?
Yes.
Then the depictions of gandharvāni or gandharvāḥ as somewhat angelic wingèd people playing instruments is Indic fancy?
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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Re: Which consciousnesses exist in the bardo?

Post by Virgo » Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:19 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:04 pm

This is because we are a gandharva (although my previous question in the previous post still stands, I am much more ignorant than I might try to appear, much much more). I read about these in the Pāli Canon. In EBT studies, there is a somewhat wave-making article by the Venerable Śrāvaka Anālayo entitled Rebirth and the Gandhabba. I've seen it treated in places like SuttaCentral as something of rebel scholarship, properly challenging Theravāda orthodoxy that there is no intermediate stage and rebirth-and-gross-embodiment is immediate.

Imagine, a bunch of EBT scholars accidentally stumbling across alleged "Mahāyāna" teachings and not knowing it. Accepting it without realizing. Conceits about Mahāyāna still intact.

Not to paint all scholars with the same brush...
Well what's going on there Coëmgenu is that they think Suttas support the idea of a gandhabba and that those same Suttas do not support the notion put forth in the Theravada Abhidhamma of an instantaneous kind of rebirth.

They think that later schools are more in line with their so called "EBT's" than Theravada Orthodoxy is in this case.

Kevin...
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


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Re: Which consciousnesses exist in the bardo?

Post by Vasana » Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:26 pm

Like your body in the bardo of dream but with the abhijñā - divine eyes, ears etc. Yet also conditioner by one's karma as to where your perceptions re directed.
  • “Great Medicine, you ask what appearance consciousness assumes during the interval after it has abandoned its old body but has not yet accepted a new body. Great Medicine, by analogy, a person’s reflection in the water has no mass to grasp. Yet its hands, feet, facial features, and other shapes are no different from the person’s. The reflection has no mass, nor does it do karmas. It has neither sense of hot or cold nor sense of touch. Nor does it fatigue or have flesh made with the four domains. Nor does it make sounds of speech, sounds of body, or sounds of pain or pleasure. The same is true for the appearance of [ālaya] consciousness after it has abandoned the old body but has not accepted a new body.
- Mahāyāna Sūtra of Consciousness Revealed

http://www.sutrasmantras.info/sutra18.html
Last edited by Vasana on Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:32 pm, edited 3 times in total.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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Re: Which consciousnesses exist in the bardo?

Post by Virgo » Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:27 pm

I can't remember exactly where but Sujato makes this argument in some of his works, Coëmgenu.

Kevin...
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


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Re: Which consciousnesses exist in the bardo?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:28 pm

Virgo wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:19 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:04 pm

This is because we are a gandharva (although my previous question in the previous post still stands, I am much more ignorant than I might try to appear, much much more). I read about these in the Pāli Canon. In EBT studies, there is a somewhat wave-making article by the Venerable Śrāvaka Anālayo entitled Rebirth and the Gandhabba. I've seen it treated in places like SuttaCentral as something of rebel scholarship, properly challenging Theravāda orthodoxy that there is no intermediate stage and rebirth-and-gross-embodiment is immediate.

Imagine, a bunch of EBT scholars accidentally stumbling across alleged "Mahāyāna" teachings and not knowing it. Accepting it without realizing. Conceits about Mahāyāna still intact.

Not to paint all scholars with the same brush...
Well what's going on there Coëmgenu is that they think Suttas support the idea of a gandhabba and that those same Suttas do not support the notion put forth in the Theravada Abhidhamma of an instantaneous kind of rebirth.
I don't want to make too elaborate a sub-discussion here, but yes, I agree with your assessment.

What I find striking is that there is no mention of any of the later schools as being, amongst them, various specifically Mahāyāna schools. No mention, as far as I have noticed as of yet. That's not a bad thing, per se. That's not ill-speech or anything of the like, but there isn't a widespread knowledge, IMO and AFAIK, and perhaps I am being silly in making this assertion, in the EBT community that this "gandharvadṛṣṭi" is, in addition to being in-line with Pāli suttāni, incidentally also Mahāyānika in nature.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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Malcolm
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Re: Which consciousnesses exist in the bardo?

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:32 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:08 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:05 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:41 pm

"Being projected by the same action that projects the pūrvakālabhava, an intermediate being has the form of this being." <-- does this mean that, for the sake of example, a being to be embodied as a cat has something of a form of a cat in the bardo? Or an asura, to use a more conventional example?
Yes.
Then the depictions of gandharvāni or gandharvāḥ as somewhat angelic wingèd people playing instruments is Indic fancy?
No, there are two kinds of gandharvas, one, a type of demigod, the other, a name for a bardo being.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Which consciousnesses exist in the bardo?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:38 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:32 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:08 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:05 pm


Yes.
Then the depictions of gandharvāni or gandharvāḥ as somewhat angelic wingèd people playing instruments is Indic fancy?
No, there are two kinds of gandharvas, one, a type of demigod, the other, a name for a bardo being.
If you will humour me the endless questions of a youngster, why these two kinds of beings with the same name?
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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Re: Which consciousnesses exist in the bardo?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:40 pm

And what is the relation of the "it eats smells" etymology?
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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Re: Which consciousnesses exist in the bardo?

Post by Virgo » Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:46 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:28 pm

What I find striking is that there is no mention of any of the later schools as being, amongst them, various specifically Mahāyāna schools. No mention, as far as I have noticed as of yet. That's not a bad thing, per se. That's not ill-speech or anything of the like, but there isn't a widespread knowledge, IMO and AFAIK, and perhaps I am being silly in making this assertion, in the EBT community that this "gandharvadṛṣṭi" is, in addition to being in-line with Pāli suttāni, incidentally also Mahāyānika in nature.
I believe Sujato addresses it in some of his works.

You give me a little while and I will find it for you Coëmgenu, it might be a day or two though.

Kevin...
ངོ་རང་ཐོག་ཏུ་སྤྲད། །
ཐག་གཅིག་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅད། །
གདེང་གྲོལ་ཐོག་ཏུ་བཅའ། །


http://caretoclick.com/clean-the-enviro ... -phone-use

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Which consciousnesses exist in the bardo?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:02 pm

Virgo wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:46 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:28 pm

What I find striking is that there is no mention of any of the later schools as being, amongst them, various specifically Mahāyāna schools. No mention, as far as I have noticed as of yet. That's not a bad thing, per se. That's not ill-speech or anything of the like, but there isn't a widespread knowledge, IMO and AFAIK, and perhaps I am being silly in making this assertion, in the EBT community that this "gandharvadṛṣṭi" is, in addition to being in-line with Pāli suttāni, incidentally also Mahāyānika in nature.
I believe Sujato addresses it in some of his works.

You give me a little while and I will find it for you Coëmgenu, it might be a day or two though.

Kevin...
Do not feel too rushed. In my experience, as far as likely attribution will go is to it being a Sarvāstivāda belief, but I am also willing to admit that it is all too likely that you simply have more exposure to the literature that me.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

AlexanderS
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Re: Which consciousnesses exist in the bardo?

Post by AlexanderS » Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:29 pm

Pardon my ignorance if i havn't read the former posts clearly enough. But do we have a subtle body in the bardo that resembles the human body with had in the life we just departed?

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Which consciousnesses exist in the bardo?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:56 pm

AlexanderS wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:29 pm
Pardon my ignorance if i havn't read the former posts clearly enough. But do we have a subtle body in the bardo that resembles the human body with had in the life we just departed?
I think:
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:05 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Jun 17, 2018 6:41 pm
"Being projected by the same action that projects the pūrvakālabhava, an intermediate being has the form of this being." <-- does this mean that, for the sake of example, a being to be embodied as a cat has something of a form of a cat in the bardo? Or an asura, to use a more conventional example?
Yes.
This might (?) imply that subtle body resembles the embodiment about to be, rather than the deceased body?

If "body" is the appropriate term here. I am appropriating terminology from a Chinese source that doesn't have extensive bardo teachings.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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Coëmgenu
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Location: Whitby, Ontario

Re: Which consciousnesses exist in the bardo?

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Jun 17, 2018 9:07 pm

Here is another silly question, if I will be forgiven, is the 'subtle body', and entrance into it or the state of it, or death, what have you, it's own form of 'embodiment' or otherwise rebirth in a subtle body?
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.
吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

नस्वातोनापिपरतोनद्वाभ्यांनाप्यहेतुतः
उत्पन्नाजातुविद्यन्तेभावाःक्वचनकेचन

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