Dharmapalas and Consorts
Dharmapalas and Consorts
Some Dharmapalas, like Za Rahula, have consorts.
Is this common, and does it indicate a level of enlightenment as opposed to being wordly?
Is this common, and does it indicate a level of enlightenment as opposed to being wordly?
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Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts
Probably best not to have a public discussion on anything related to the Guardians.
'When thoughts arise, recognise them clearly as your teacher'— Gampopa
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts
I think people are savvy enough not to reveal any practice details and just answer a simple question.
If it seems not, we invented Tantra Talk for questions best answered in private, so Mods can move it there.
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Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts
On issues that can be misconstrued by those unfamiliar with the subject matter and of secret-mantra in general, it's best to err on the side of caution since this is a public forum and people may form or have their wrong views reinforced whether intentionally or not. This can make the possibility of meeting and trusting these vehicles even slimmer which should be avoided. I think this forum overall has a bit of a heavy issue for for speaking about things we shouldn't be, however simple they may seem to us.
'When thoughts arise, recognise them clearly as your teacher'— Gampopa
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts
Maybe, and I know you've raised this objection before, but there are many threads here including discussions about Dharmapalas and by and large they don't go into detail. One potential benefit is that some may realise that what they have been told about their pet Gyalpo is very wrong........a good many of them read DW, and even post here.Vasana wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:38 pmOn issues that can be misconstrued by those unfamiliar with the subject matter and of secret-mantra in general, it's best to err on the side of caution since this is a public forum and people may form or have their wrong views reinforced whether intentionally or not. This can make the possibility of meeting and trusting these vehicles even slimmer which should be avoided. I think this forum overall has a bit of a heavy issue for for speaking about things we shouldn't be, however simple they may seem to us.
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts
Yes, pretty common and no I don't think it indicate a level of enlightenment because for example Lha Chenpo is almost always depicted with his consort.
https://www.himalayanart.org/search/set.cfm?setID=559
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts
Thanks.heart wrote: ↑Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:48 pmYes, pretty common and no I don't think it indicate a level of enlightenment because for example Lha Chenpo is almost always depicted with his consort.
https://www.himalayanart.org/search/set.cfm?setID=559
/magnus
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
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Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts
that class doesn't have females, so to me it indicated power, dominion, superiority, etc.
it is part of the retinue.
true dharma is inexpressible.
The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts
Where did you get the idea that there arent female raksha?javier.espinoza.t wrote: ↑Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:49 amthat class doesn't have females, so to me it indicated power, dominion, superiority, etc.
it is part of the retinue.
Where did you get the idea that masculinity is more powerful or "superior" in the teachings or worldly life?
"All phenomena of samsara depend on the mind, so when the essence of mind is purified, samsara is purified. Since the phenomena of nirvana depend on the pristine consciousness of vidyā, because one remains in the immediacy of vidyā, buddhahood arises on its own. All critical points are summarized with those two." - Longchenpa
Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts
Yes, the consorts are Rakshasi and also invoked.Josef wrote: ↑Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:18 amWhere did you get the idea that there arent female raksha?javier.espinoza.t wrote: ↑Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:49 amthat class doesn't have females, so to me it indicated power, dominion, superiority, etc.
it is part of the retinue.
Where did you get the idea that masculinity is more powerful or "superior" in the teachings or worldly life?
I'd never argue with a Mamo. It wouldn't end well.
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts
Za Rahula have four consorts.javier.espinoza.t wrote: ↑Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:49 amthat class doesn't have females, so to me it indicated power, dominion, superiority, etc.
it is part of the retinue.
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts
In Kamtsang Bernakchen and Palden Lhamo most often practiced together. There are several forms of Mahakala that are Yabyum, of course. So it's seems pretty clear that Enlightened protectors can have consorts.
There are worldly protectors, as well, that have consorts, as noted here. In fact, some worldly protectors have taken practitioners as consorts. That's about all I'll say about the matter.....I'd recommend not messing with Worldly protectors in general, unless you've accomplished the siddhi of your yidam, etc.
There are worldly protectors, as well, that have consorts, as noted here. In fact, some worldly protectors have taken practitioners as consorts. That's about all I'll say about the matter.....I'd recommend not messing with Worldly protectors in general, unless you've accomplished the siddhi of your yidam, etc.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts
Thanks.conebeckham wrote: ↑Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:36 pm In Kamtsang Bernakchen and Palden Lhamo most often practiced together. There are several forms of Mahakala that are Yabyum, of course. So it's seems pretty clear that Enlightened protectors can have consorts.
There are worldly protectors, as well, that have consorts, as noted here. In fact, some worldly protectors have taken practitioners as consorts. That's about all I'll say about the matter.....I'd recommend not messing with Worldly protectors in general, unless you've accomplished the siddhi of your yidam, etc.
I wasn't aware of that Mahakala practice. I assume Maning is exempted, being 'gender unified'.
Hmm...did I just invent a new category for gender discrimination activists?
Yes, we should have no interaction with any Dharmapala practices unless guided by a Guru we can trust.
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts
Maning here means nondual, not neuter.Mantrik wrote: ↑Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:58 pmThanks.conebeckham wrote: ↑Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:36 pm In Kamtsang Bernakchen and Palden Lhamo most often practiced together. There are several forms of Mahakala that are Yabyum, of course. So it's seems pretty clear that Enlightened protectors can have consorts.
There are worldly protectors, as well, that have consorts, as noted here. In fact, some worldly protectors have taken practitioners as consorts. That's about all I'll say about the matter.....I'd recommend not messing with Worldly protectors in general, unless you've accomplished the siddhi of your yidam, etc.
I wasn't aware of that Mahakala practice. I assume Maning is exempted, being 'gender unified'.
Hmm...did I just invent a new category for gender discrimination activists?
Yes, we should have no interaction with any Dharmapala practices unless guided by a Guru we can trust.
Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts
Indeed, which is why I used 'unified'. I'm aware that some use 'neutral' or even worse, 'eunuch'.Malcolm wrote: ↑Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:13 pmManing here means nondual, not neuter.Mantrik wrote: ↑Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:58 pmThanks.conebeckham wrote: ↑Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:36 pm In Kamtsang Bernakchen and Palden Lhamo most often practiced together. There are several forms of Mahakala that are Yabyum, of course. So it's seems pretty clear that Enlightened protectors can have consorts.
There are worldly protectors, as well, that have consorts, as noted here. In fact, some worldly protectors have taken practitioners as consorts. That's about all I'll say about the matter.....I'd recommend not messing with Worldly protectors in general, unless you've accomplished the siddhi of your yidam, etc.
I wasn't aware of that Mahakala practice. I assume Maning is exempted, being 'gender unified'.
Hmm...did I just invent a new category for gender discrimination activists?
Yes, we should have no interaction with any Dharmapala practices unless guided by a Guru we can trust.
Either we say he is neither one gender nor the other, or is both genders unified and therefore neither one nor the other. Are you saying it is nothing to do with gender at all and 'nondual' in another context?
ON p. 128 of Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja, ChNN calls him 'Neuter Mahakala' but I guess it is down to how we interpret that.
Last edited by Mantrik on Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts
It is all symbolic dude. You haven't learnt that yet?Mantrik wrote: ↑Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:27 pmIndeed, which is why I used 'unified'. I'm aware that some use 'neutral' or even worse, 'eunuch'.
Either we say he is neither one gender nor the other, or is both genders unified and therefore neither one nor the other. Are you saying it is nothing to do with gender at all and 'nondual' in another context?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE
"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts
No. I'm immensely stupid and understand very little, oh Shasana. It has taken me decades to realise that.Grigoris wrote: ↑Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:31 pmIt is all symbolic dude. You haven't learnt that yet?Mantrik wrote: ↑Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:27 pmIndeed, which is why I used 'unified'. I'm aware that some use 'neutral' or even worse, 'eunuch'.
Either we say he is neither one gender nor the other, or is both genders unified and therefore neither one nor the other. Are you saying it is nothing to do with gender at all and 'nondual' in another context?
Better tell ChNN that using 'Neuter Mahakala' is a sign of ignorance too.
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
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Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts
afaik this is a Vajrapani Buddha manifestation in the common form of the so called Gyalpos... not in a Raksha form, and there are no females between Gyalpos. Having a retinue is a symbol of power, that's all... this is because among "demons" is all about power and power only, not of moral, gender, rights, etc. the greater power, the happy they are.
forgiveme if i'm wrong.
true dharma is inexpressible.
The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
The bodhisattva nourishes from bodhicitta, through whatever method the Buddha has given him. Oh joy.
Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts
You are very wide of the mark as far as my own understanding goes. Gyalpo class? Nope - read ChNN's description. His 4 consorts are Rakshasis, invoked, and important.javier.espinoza.t wrote: ↑Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:58 pmafaik this is a Vajrapani Buddha manifestation in the common form of the so called Gyalpos... not in a Raksha form, and there are no females between Gyalpos. Having a retinue is a symbol of power, that's all... this is because among "demons" is all about power and power only, not of moral, gender, rights, etc. the greater power, the happy they are.
forgiveme if i'm wrong.
http://www.khyung.com ཁྲོཾ
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
Om Thathpurushaya Vidhmahe
Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath
Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)
Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts
I think you are. Za Rahula is not a Gyalpo. He is a high level Bodhisattva and protector of the Dzogchen teachings.javier.espinoza.t wrote: ↑Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:58 pmafaik this is a Vajrapani Buddha manifestation in the common form of the so called Gyalpos... not in a Raksha form, and there are no females between Gyalpos. Having a retinue is a symbol of power, that's all... this is because among "demons" is all about power and power only, not of moral, gender, rights, etc. the greater power, the happy they are.
forgiveme if i'm wrong.
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)