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Dharmapalas and Consorts

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:25 am
by Mantrik
Some Dharmapalas, like Za Rahula, have consorts.
Is this common, and does it indicate a level of enlightenment as opposed to being wordly?

Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:44 am
by Vasana
Probably best not to have a public discussion on anything related to the Guardians.

Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:50 am
by Mantrik
Vasana wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:44 am
Probably best not to have a public discussion on anything related to the Guardians.
I think people are savvy enough not to reveal any practice details and just answer a simple question.

If it seems not, we invented Tantra Talk for questions best answered in private, so Mods can move it there.

Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:38 pm
by Vasana
Mantrik wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:50 am
Vasana wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:44 am
Probably best not to have a public discussion on anything related to the Guardians.
I think people are savvy enough not to reveal any practice details and just answer a simple question.

If it seems not, we invented Tantra Talk for questions best answered in private, so Mods can move it there.
On issues that can be misconstrued by those unfamiliar with the subject matter and of secret-mantra in general, it's best to err on the side of caution since this is a public forum and people may form or have their wrong views reinforced whether intentionally or not. This can make the possibility of meeting and trusting these vehicles even slimmer which should be avoided. I think this forum overall has a bit of a heavy issue for for speaking about things we shouldn't be, however simple they may seem to us.

Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:48 pm
by Mantrik
Vasana wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 12:38 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:50 am
Vasana wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:44 am
Probably best not to have a public discussion on anything related to the Guardians.
I think people are savvy enough not to reveal any practice details and just answer a simple question.

If it seems not, we invented Tantra Talk for questions best answered in private, so Mods can move it there.
On issues that can be misconstrued by those unfamiliar with the subject matter and of secret-mantra in general, it's best to err on the side of caution since this is a public forum and people may form or have their wrong views reinforced whether intentionally or not. This can make the possibility of meeting and trusting these vehicles even slimmer which should be avoided. I think this forum overall has a bit of a heavy issue for for speaking about things we shouldn't be, however simple they may seem to us.
Maybe, and I know you've raised this objection before, but there are many threads here including discussions about Dharmapalas and by and large they don't go into detail. One potential benefit is that some may realise that what they have been told about their pet Gyalpo is very wrong........a good many of them read DW, and even post here.

Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:48 pm
by heart
Mantrik wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:25 am
Some Dharmapalas, like Za Rahula, have consorts.
Is this common, and does it indicate a level of enlightenment as opposed to being wordly?
Yes, pretty common and no I don't think it indicate a level of enlightenment because for example Lha Chenpo is almost always depicted with his consort.

https://www.himalayanart.org/search/set.cfm?setID=559

/magnus

Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts

Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:37 pm
by Mantrik
heart wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 2:48 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:25 am
Some Dharmapalas, like Za Rahula, have consorts.
Is this common, and does it indicate a level of enlightenment as opposed to being wordly?
Yes, pretty common and no I don't think it indicate a level of enlightenment because for example Lha Chenpo is almost always depicted with his consort.

https://www.himalayanart.org/search/set.cfm?setID=559

/magnus
Thanks. :)

Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:49 am
by javier.espinoza.t
Mantrik wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:25 am
Some Dharmapalas, like Za Rahula, have consorts.
Is this common, and does it indicate a level of enlightenment as opposed to being wordly?
that class doesn't have females, so to me it indicated power, dominion, superiority, etc.

it is part of the retinue.

Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:18 am
by Josef
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:49 am
Mantrik wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:25 am
Some Dharmapalas, like Za Rahula, have consorts.
Is this common, and does it indicate a level of enlightenment as opposed to being wordly?
that class doesn't have females, so to me it indicated power, dominion, superiority, etc.

it is part of the retinue.
Where did you get the idea that there arent female raksha?
Where did you get the idea that masculinity is more powerful or "superior" in the teachings or worldly life?

Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:51 am
by Mantrik
Josef wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:18 am
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:49 am
Mantrik wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:25 am
Some Dharmapalas, like Za Rahula, have consorts.
Is this common, and does it indicate a level of enlightenment as opposed to being wordly?
that class doesn't have females, so to me it indicated power, dominion, superiority, etc.

it is part of the retinue.
Where did you get the idea that there arent female raksha?
Where did you get the idea that masculinity is more powerful or "superior" in the teachings or worldly life?
Yes, the consorts are Rakshasi and also invoked.

I'd never argue with a Mamo. It wouldn't end well.

Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:38 am
by heart
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 3:49 am
Mantrik wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:25 am
Some Dharmapalas, like Za Rahula, have consorts.
Is this common, and does it indicate a level of enlightenment as opposed to being wordly?
that class doesn't have females, so to me it indicated power, dominion, superiority, etc.

it is part of the retinue.
Za Rahula have four consorts.

/magnus

Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:36 pm
by conebeckham
In Kamtsang Bernakchen and Palden Lhamo most often practiced together. There are several forms of Mahakala that are Yabyum, of course. So it's seems pretty clear that Enlightened protectors can have consorts.

There are worldly protectors, as well, that have consorts, as noted here. In fact, some worldly protectors have taken practitioners as consorts. That's about all I'll say about the matter.....I'd recommend not messing with Worldly protectors in general, unless you've accomplished the siddhi of your yidam, etc.

Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:58 pm
by Mantrik
conebeckham wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:36 pm
In Kamtsang Bernakchen and Palden Lhamo most often practiced together. There are several forms of Mahakala that are Yabyum, of course. So it's seems pretty clear that Enlightened protectors can have consorts.

There are worldly protectors, as well, that have consorts, as noted here. In fact, some worldly protectors have taken practitioners as consorts. That's about all I'll say about the matter.....I'd recommend not messing with Worldly protectors in general, unless you've accomplished the siddhi of your yidam, etc.
Thanks. :)
I wasn't aware of that Mahakala practice. I assume Maning is exempted, being 'gender unified'.
Hmm...did I just invent a new category for gender discrimination activists? :)

Yes, we should have no interaction with any Dharmapala practices unless guided by a Guru we can trust.

Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:13 pm
by Malcolm
Mantrik wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:58 pm
conebeckham wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:36 pm
In Kamtsang Bernakchen and Palden Lhamo most often practiced together. There are several forms of Mahakala that are Yabyum, of course. So it's seems pretty clear that Enlightened protectors can have consorts.

There are worldly protectors, as well, that have consorts, as noted here. In fact, some worldly protectors have taken practitioners as consorts. That's about all I'll say about the matter.....I'd recommend not messing with Worldly protectors in general, unless you've accomplished the siddhi of your yidam, etc.
Thanks. :)
I wasn't aware of that Mahakala practice. I assume Maning is exempted, being 'gender unified'.
Hmm...did I just invent a new category for gender discrimination activists? :)

Yes, we should have no interaction with any Dharmapala practices unless guided by a Guru we can trust.
Maning here means nondual, not neuter.

Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:27 pm
by Mantrik
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:13 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 7:58 pm
conebeckham wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 6:36 pm
In Kamtsang Bernakchen and Palden Lhamo most often practiced together. There are several forms of Mahakala that are Yabyum, of course. So it's seems pretty clear that Enlightened protectors can have consorts.

There are worldly protectors, as well, that have consorts, as noted here. In fact, some worldly protectors have taken practitioners as consorts. That's about all I'll say about the matter.....I'd recommend not messing with Worldly protectors in general, unless you've accomplished the siddhi of your yidam, etc.
Thanks. :)
I wasn't aware of that Mahakala practice. I assume Maning is exempted, being 'gender unified'.
Hmm...did I just invent a new category for gender discrimination activists? :)

Yes, we should have no interaction with any Dharmapala practices unless guided by a Guru we can trust.
Maning here means nondual, not neuter.
Indeed, which is why I used 'unified'. I'm aware that some use 'neutral' or even worse, 'eunuch'.
Either we say he is neither one gender nor the other, or is both genders unified and therefore neither one nor the other. Are you saying it is nothing to do with gender at all and 'nondual' in another context?

ON p. 128 of Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja, ChNN calls him 'Neuter Mahakala' but I guess it is down to how we interpret that.

Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:31 pm
by Grigoris
Mantrik wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:27 pm
Indeed, which is why I used 'unified'. I'm aware that some use 'neutral' or even worse, 'eunuch'.
Either we say he is neither one gender nor the other, or is both genders unified and therefore neither one nor the other. Are you saying it is nothing to do with gender at all and 'nondual' in another context?
It is all symbolic dude. You haven't learnt that yet?

Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:33 pm
by Mantrik
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:31 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:27 pm
Indeed, which is why I used 'unified'. I'm aware that some use 'neutral' or even worse, 'eunuch'.
Either we say he is neither one gender nor the other, or is both genders unified and therefore neither one nor the other. Are you saying it is nothing to do with gender at all and 'nondual' in another context?
It is all symbolic dude. You haven't learnt that yet?
No. I'm immensely stupid and understand very little, oh Shasana. It has taken me decades to realise that. ;)

Better tell ChNN that using 'Neuter Mahakala' is a sign of ignorance too.

Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:58 pm
by javier.espinoza.t
Josef wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:18 am
Where did you get the idea that there arent female raksha?
Where did you get the idea that masculinity is more powerful or "superior" in the teachings or worldly life?
heart wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:38 am
Za Rahula have four consorts.

/magnus
afaik this is a Vajrapani Buddha manifestation in the common form of the so called Gyalpos... not in a Raksha form, and there are no females between Gyalpos. Having a retinue is a symbol of power, that's all... this is because among "demons" is all about power and power only, not of moral, gender, rights, etc. the greater power, the happy they are.

forgiveme if i'm wrong.

Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:04 pm
by Mantrik
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:58 pm
Josef wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:18 am
Where did you get the idea that there arent female raksha?
Where did you get the idea that masculinity is more powerful or "superior" in the teachings or worldly life?
heart wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:38 am
Za Rahula have four consorts.

/magnus
afaik this is a Vajrapani Buddha manifestation in the common form of the so called Gyalpos... not in a Raksha form, and there are no females between Gyalpos. Having a retinue is a symbol of power, that's all... this is because among "demons" is all about power and power only, not of moral, gender, rights, etc. the greater power, the happy they are.

forgiveme if i'm wrong.
You are very wide of the mark as far as my own understanding goes. Gyalpo class? Nope - read ChNN's description. His 4 consorts are Rakshasis, invoked, and important.

Re: Dharmapalas and Consorts

Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:06 pm
by heart
javier.espinoza.t wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 8:58 pm
Josef wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 4:18 am
Where did you get the idea that there arent female raksha?
Where did you get the idea that masculinity is more powerful or "superior" in the teachings or worldly life?
heart wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:38 am
Za Rahula have four consorts.

/magnus
afaik this is a Vajrapani Buddha manifestation in the common form of the so called Gyalpos... not in a Raksha form, and there are no females between Gyalpos. Having a retinue is a symbol of power, that's all... this is because among "demons" is all about power and power only, not of moral, gender, rights, etc. the greater power, the happy they are.

forgiveme if i'm wrong.
I think you are. Za Rahula is not a Gyalpo. He is a high level Bodhisattva and protector of the Dzogchen teachings.

/magnus